[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Like I said, I'm not saying I agree with him, just that he makes a good parallel with the majority of feminist literature. He is frequently ridiculous and completely and utterly one sided and seems to have an uncanny ability to make literally ANYTHING into an issue with "evil women!!!" but... that's what makes it a good parallel.

Yes, I do understand your angle. I think feminism started out as one thing and has grown into a monster. I think of myself as a feminist in as much as I want to enjoy equality at work and in other areas, and equality, as we all know, means being equal with men, not somehow getting one over on them, which seems to be the militant feminist agenda.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, I do understand your angle. I think feminism started out as one thing and has grown into a monster. I think of myself as a feminist in as much as I want to enjoy equality at work and in other areas, and equality, as we all know, means being equal with men, not somehow getting one over on them, which seems to be the militant feminist agenda.

Absolutely agree

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I guess though, my sense of self and identity is quite gender-neutral and "I am a man / a male" is a fairly irrelevant statement, to me, when talking about who I am. I'm an individualist and tend to look at almost every issue completely "gender blind". The only responsibility that comes into it is with each individual, for themselves. I am no more responsible for the actions of "some men" than I am for the actions of "some sharks"... And likewise... I have very little time or understanding for women who feel hurt / offended on behalf of "other women" in situations that don't apply to themselves.

Example: historically, women's political freedoms were oppressed by men. I get that. But Are your political freedoms oppressed? Did I personally oppress them? Have I oppressed anyone's political freedoms? With the answers to those being "no", I reserve the right to take absolutely no responsibility, or feel any "guilt" whatsoever, for the actions of other human beings who also happened to have penises.

I can accept that, I'm totally with you on the the whole individual idea....which is probably why it bothers me when people want to generalise me by my gender, if that makes sense?

[Kizzy]

'Though the suicide rate for women in England and Wales halved between 1971 and 1998, the same period saw the rates for men almost double. After reaching an all time high at 21.1 per 100,000 in both 1992 and 1998, the number of male suicides did begin to decline gradually and in 2005 a 30 per cent reduction was recorded, which many attributed in part to the Government's National Suicide Prevention Strategy. However, men still remain far more vulnerable to death by suicide than women, accounting for 75 per cent of all suicides in the UK. In 2008 the Office for National Statistics recorded 17.7 suicides per 100,000 in men compared to 5.4 per 100,000 in women.'

I think this shows that social reforms and the pill helped reduce suicide rates for women yet at the same time a suicide rates for men rose. maybe due to the financial pressure of divorce, more equality in the workplace and pay the balance of power shifted, it's not womens fault they were and are subjugated for time.
The fairly recent rise in male suicide rates show something has gone very wrong, but whats the answer, to again denigrate women? No, bolster men and attempt to find a soloution, both sexes have equal responsibility in this.

http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/menstats.html

[rubymoo]

I feel the problem is that men don't communicate as freely as women, if a couple have marital problems then the woman is more likely to go to friends/relatives for advice, whereas a man won't even divulge to his friends that there are problems, why this is i don't know.

The presenter in the BBC programme who'd lost his dad to suicide, stated that they were a happy family, there weren't any marital issues, it was only after his passing it was found that he was infact having affairs, the wife loved her husband (the presenters dad) and had no idea the inner struggles he was facing.

Statistically women try to commit suicide more than men, but the method they use often fails (overdose) whereas the methods used by men are often immediately fatal (hanging/shooting/jumping off buildings/lying on train tracks etc) this is the reason that statistically men have a higher suicide rate.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I feel the problem is that men don't communicate as freely as women, if a couple have marital problems then the woman is more likely to go to friends/relatives for advice, whereas a man won't even divulge to his friends that there are problems, why this is i don't know.

The presenter in the BBC programme who'd lost his dad to suicide, stated that they were a happy family, there weren't any marital issues, it was only after his passing it was found that he was infact having affairs, the wife loved her husband (the presenters dad) and had no idea the inner struggles he was facing.

Statistically women try to commit suicide more than men, but the method they use often fails (overdose) whereas the methods used by men are often immediately fatal (hanging/shooting/jumping off buildings/lying on train tracks etc) this is the reason that statistically men have a higher suicide rate.

This is true. I used to do that, but now that i talk about how i feel it helps me to be stronger. Men don't talk about their problems.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

This is true. I used to do that, but now that i talk about how i feel it helps me to be stronger. Men don't talk about their problems.

they have far fewer people to talk to....nhs mental health spending on women is 4 times greater than on men as is overall nhs spending...worse still the number of female charities outnumbers mens by 40 to 1....in other words virtually nothing is being done to help these men. when you add how biased the law courts are in favour of women and how anti male politicians are then you have this record high of male suicides. its obvious uk has become an anti male sexist society and of course much of the blame for that lies with feminists.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

they have far fewer people to talk to....nhs mental health spending on women is 4 times greater than on men as is overall nhs spending...worse still the number of female charities outnumbers mens by 40 to 1....in other words virtually nothing is being done to help these men. when you add how biased the law courts are in favour of women and how anti male politicians are then you have this record high of male suicides. its obvious uk has become an anti male sexist society and of course much of the blame for that lies with feminists.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation though, truth. The reason women have more people to talk to is because women are in general more willing to talk. The supply exists to meet the demand, in this case. There are fewer services for men seeking therapy or just someone to listen to, because fewer men are requesting or seeking out those services.

There are cultural reasons for this and probably biological reasons, too: while men and women should be equal, let's not pretend that we are the same. Women are more inclined to seek social contact and groups when they are in trouble, men are more inclined to internalise and try (often ineffectively) to deal with things alone.

Im not saying that the same things don't help both, they do, just that taking that first step in seeking it (even just going to a GP, for all sorts of issues, mental and physical) is more common for women than for men and that's why there are more services and spending is higher. I doubt it's deliberate or with any reason beyond that.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation though, truth. The reason women have more people to talk to is because women are in general more willing to talk. The supply exists to meet the demand, in this case. There are fewer services for men seeking therapy or just someone to listen to, because fewer men are requesting or seeking out those services.

There are cultural reasons for this and probably biological reasons, too: while men and women should be equal, let's not pretend that we are the same. Women are more inclined to seek social contact and groups when they are in trouble, men are more inclined to internalise and try (often ineffectively) to deal with things alone.

Im not saying that the same things don't help both, they do, just that taking that first step in seeking it (even just going to a GP, for all sorts of issues, mental and physical) is more common for women than for men and that's why there are more services and spending is higher. I doubt it's deliberate or with any reason beyond that.

it doesn't justify whatsoever the lack of help for men...also I do not think women are remotely better at listening...another factor is men have less time because on average still they get less time off work, less are taking benefits, more worker longer hours, often in harder more physically demanding jobs...add to that almost no help with mental health far less help with all other issues , also fighting against the system in the family and divorce law courts and its a massive raft of issues that are making mens lives in this country utterly insufferable...they see no way out other than to jump off a bridge...by the way when men do talk they ALWAYS get shouted down as sexist mysoginist pigs due to the reverse sexism in this country...women sentences are tiny compared to mens, even for violent crime , even in some cases murder...they incite violence yet get away with it, why? well it would be cruel to take a mother away from her children wouldn't it? women are more crude and plain rude in in their everyday behaviour in a way men do find offensive but men don't complain because they know it wont be taken seriously...yet a woman complains and all hell breaks loose...even when it turns out to be a pack of lies in rape trials women walk free? why?

this is a war created by the rich....men and women need not fight at all....but the rich have allowed this nonsense one sided feminist lies and propaganda to go on for decades unanswered...why you ask? well theyre too busy selling weapons of mass destruction, rigging stock markets etc leave us little people argue amongst ourselves

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

they have far fewer people to talk to....nhs mental health spending on women is 4 times greater than on men as is overall nhs spending...worse still the number of female charities outnumbers mens by 40 to 1....in other words virtually nothing is being done to help these men. when you add how biased the law courts are in favour of women and how anti male politicians are then you have this record high of male suicides. its obvious uk has become an anti male sexist society and of course much of the blame for that lies with feminists.

Again though, is this not because fewer men seek help? NHS is there for everyone and if men told their doctors how they were feeling they would surely get referred for therapy or something same as women did right?

The charity thing, again I didn't know charities were gender selective. And haven't been able to find anything to back it up either?

The court thing IS a massive issue that I wish the government would tackle. Its an issue quite close to me too tbh, Gavs been fighting for his other kids since I got with him and is getting nowhere, despite his ex pretty much neglecting them at every turn :S The way the law works though, again cannot just be blamed on women

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Again though, is this not because fewer men seek help? NHS is there for everyone and if men told their doctors how they were feeling they would surely get referred for therapy or something same as women did right?

The charity thing, again I didn't know charities were gender selective. And haven't been able to find anything to back it up either?

The court thing IS a massive issue that I wish the government would tackle. Its an issue quite close to me too tbh, Gavs been fighting for his other kids since I got with him and is getting nowhere, despite his ex pretty much neglecting them at every turn :S The way the law works though, again cannot just be blamed on women

Same with my Gav (although not anymore as my step son is 16 now and has moved in with us of his own accord) Times changed but the Law didn't.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I feel the problem is that men don't communicate as freely as women, if a couple have marital problems then the woman is more likely to go to friends/relatives for advice, whereas a man won't even divulge to his friends that there are problems, why this is i don't know.

The presenter in the BBC programme who'd lost his dad to suicide, stated that they were a happy family, there weren't any marital issues, it was only after his passing it was found that he was infact having affairs, the wife loved her husband (the presenters dad) and had no idea the inner struggles he was facing.

Statistically women try to commit suicide more than men, but the method they use often fails (overdose) whereas the methods used by men are often immediately fatal (hanging/shooting/jumping off buildings/lying on train tracks etc) this is the reason that statistically men have a higher suicide rate.

Attempted suicides by overdose are often not "true" suicide attempts (although they do often result in death anyway) but are more ambiguous combination of a cry for help and "not really caring" if death is the end result.

If someone is 100% sure and determined to kill themselves then they will almost always succeed on the first attempt.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Attempted suicides by overdose are often not "true" suicide attempts (although they do often result in death anyway) but are more ambiguous combination of a cry for help and "not really caring" if death is the end result.

If someone is 100% sure and determined to kill themselves then they will almost always succeed on the first attempt.

I don't know If I agree with that, killing yourself by hanging or slitting your wrists etc sounds terrifying and hard to do to yourself. Taking pills seems like the least scary way to do it

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't know If I agree with that, killing yourself by hanging or slitting your wrists etc sounds terrifying and hard to do to yourself. Taking pills seems like the least scary way to do it

It's by far the least effective though, people's bodies react differently and a small dose that might kill one person might not harm another. Even more tragically, taking a massive overdose and surviving it can do untold damage to the liver or kidneys so the person can end up alive, but cripplingly unwell, or even dying slowly a few months later. The worst cases are when people take an overdose, wake up in hospital and realise they are glad to be alive, and are then told that the damage that's been caused is going to kill them anyway. Truly horrific, much more terrifying than something like a shotgun in the mouth or jumping off a bridge. But then maybe there's a misunderstanding with how effective it is? I don't know. The Media tends to portray suicide by overdose as the "close call" that people recover from so I tend to assume that people actually misunderstand just how much damage CAN be done.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Attempted suicides by overdose are often not "true" suicide attempts (although they do often result in death anyway) but are more ambiguous combination of a cry for help and "not really caring" if death is the end result.

If someone is 100% sure and determined to kill themselves then they will almost always succeed on the first attempt.

Mmmm....i'm not sure i agree as my mum committed suicide on her 7th attempt at an overdose, many of my family said it was a cry for help, and i sort of think that may have been true in the earlier attempts, however after her 6th attempt the doctors told her that if she took another overdose it would kill her as she'd damaged her internal organs, with that knowledge she then went on to kill herself.

We also had a family friend, he was a gentle soul, deeply in love with my cousin, however things didn't work out and after years of unrequited love and lack of direction, he decided to lie on the train tracks and that was that, that to me takes a lot of guts and courage, however i suspect he may have been under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

Then there was a doctor (she was my doctor), who seemed to have a perfect life, 2 small children, husband who loved her, perfect home, and she took her life with an overdose, she lay down in a grassy area, took her prescription pills and placed a green coloured coat over herself, fell asleep and died, she was found 2 weeks after she went missing under her coat.

My point is that the doctor seemed pretty determined to take her life as it was a remote area, and the coat was the same colour as the area she lay on, whereas my mum always did it in the house where she would be found.

Sorry Niamh and Kizzy just read your posts and yes this topic of conversation is bleak, but some of us have to live with the wondering for ever.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Mmmm....i'm not sure i agree as my mum committed suicide on her 7th attempt at an overdose, many of my family said it was a cry for help, and i sort of think that may have been true in the earlier attempts, however after her 6th attempt the doctors told her that if she took another overdose it would kill her as she'd damaged her internal organs, with that knowledge she then went on to kill herself.

We also had a family friend, he was a gentle soul, deeply in love with my cousin, however things didn't work out and after years of unrequited love and lack of direction, he decided to lie on the train tracks and that was that, that to me takes a lot of guts and courage, however i suspect he may have been under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

Then there was a doctor (she was my doctor), who seemed to have a perfect life, 2 small children, husband who loved her, perfect home, and she took her life with an overdose, she lay down in a grassy area, took her prescription pills and placed a green coloured coat over herself, fell asleep and died, she was found 2 weeks after she went missing under her coat.

My point is that the doctor seemed pretty determined to take her life as it was a remote area, and the coat was the same colour as the area she lay on, whereas my mum always did it in the house where she would be found.

Sorry Niamh and Kizzy just read your posts and yes this topic of conversation is bleak, but some of us have to live with the wondering for ever.

I know. I would imagine there's very few people that a suicide hasn't affected in one way or the other at some point in their life. I lost my best friend to suicide when I was 19.

[Kizzy]

Anyhoo... If anyone is feeling conflicted let's not give them any ideas eh? :/

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Anyhoo... If anyone is feeling conflicted let's not give them any ideas eh? :/

Yeah, this conversation is getting a little bleak

[RichardG]

The help is available for men just as much as it is for women. I've been going through a lot recently and just this Monday I went to my GP and already I've got an appointment for CBT tomorrow morning. People just need to move on from the silly idea that men are void of any emotion or feelings. If you're struggling, go to your GP. If they're half decent at their job then they're always there to help.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by RichardG

The help is available for men just as much as it is for women. I've been going through a lot recently and just this Monday I went to my GP and already I've got an appointment for CBT tomorrow morning. People just need to move on from the silly idea that men are void of any emotion or feelings. If you're struggling, go to your GP. If they're half decent at their job then they're always there to help.

Good Luck tomorrow Richard

[RichardG]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Good Luck tomorrow Richard

thanks

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by RichardG

The help is available for men just as much as it is for women. I've been going through a lot recently and just this Monday I went to my GP and already I've got an appointment for CBT tomorrow morning. People just need to move on from the silly idea that men are void of any emotion or feelings. If you're struggling, go to your GP. If they're half decent at their job then they're always there to help.

Brilliant Richard!

I'm glad you're getting the help you need.

My nephew was struggling with his mental health, he went to see a doctor, and he's also having cbt, he's got counselling sessions booked and he's on anti depressants, he's only 17, but i'm so proud of the fact that he knew he needed help and sought it out.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by RichardG

The help is available for men just as much as it is for women. I've been going through a lot recently and just this Monday I went to my GP and already I've got an appointment for CBT tomorrow morning. People just need to move on from the silly idea that men are void of any emotion or feelings. If you're struggling, go to your GP. If they're half decent at their job then they're always there to help.

that is simply untrue Richard, but look luck with everything ...I hope it goes well for you

[Vicky.]

I know 4 people who have killed themselves. 1 was via heroin (pretty sure way to go really). One IV'd morphine pills, which tbh is pretty much the same as heroin. One traditional paracetamol and one by slitting her wrists.

All were sucessful on first attempt..probably as they actually wanted to die. I do not believe that people try to commit suicide. If you want to go, you go. I also know one girl (and this is a cry for help scenario) who took 10 paracetamol and phoned an ambulance on herself.

This is taking away from the thread though really. Suicides in general are a big problem, but if the proportion of men to women who kill themselves is higher, then yes, thats another big problem. However I do not believe it helps ANYONE to blame all of mens woes on women. Its unfair to blame women in the media for not speraking out, when no men in the media do anyway. The problem is that men are expected to be 'men'. And 'men' dont talk about their feelings, or let anyone know when they have problems. Its wrong. And to blame the whole issue on evil feminists or whatever, makes a bit of a joke of a very serious topic IMO.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I know 4 people who have killed themselves. 1 was via heroin (pretty sure way to go really). One IV'd morphine pills, which tbh is pretty much the same as heroin. One traditional paracetamol and one by slitting her wrists.

All were sucessful on first attempt..probably as they actually wanted to die. I do not believe that people try to commit suicide. If you want to go, you go. I also know one girl (and this is a cry for help scenario) who took 10 paracetamol and phoned an ambulance on herself.

This is taking away from the thread though really. Suicides in general are a big problem, but if the proportion of men to women who kill themselves is higher, then yes, thats another big problem. However I do not believe it helps ANYONE to blame all of mens woes on women. Its unfair to blame women in the media for not speraking out, when no men in the media do anyway. The problem is that men are expected to be 'men'. And 'men' dont talk about their feelings, or let anyone know when they have problems. Its wrong. And to blame the whole issue on evil feminists or whatever, makes a bit of a joke of a very serious topic IMO.