[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by the truth

you've said nothing to help them....as a mother id have thought youd be more passionate about fighting male suicide male mortality rates, men losing their children etc doesn't this concern you? I don't hate women despite your pernicious comments.. I do hate the way some behave , how little support they give men , how little they speak up for mens rights too , how unaccountable many are and how there are so many double standards

But you do generalise a lot about women in a very negative way which is the reason I think you hate women. You say I'm not concerned about family law concerning men yet if you scroll back through this thread you'll see you're forgetting that I agreed with you about that. My issue with how you approach the subject is that you seem to be blaming women solely for both this and male suicide rates when surely it's everyone's problem where this is concerned? Especially the countries governments and law makers

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

But you do generalise a lot about women in a very negative way which is the reason I think you hate women. You say I'm not concerned about family law concerning men yet if you scroll back through this thread you'll see you're forgetting that I agreed with you about that. My issue with how you approach the subject is that you seem to be blaming women solely for both this and male suicide rates when surely it's everyone's problem where this is concerned? Especially the countries governments and law makers

im talking about this country, though America and western sociesties seem to all have similar problems.......men have almost no male school teachers in junior school and none in infants....with no fathers millions have no male role model at all......women are frankly brainwashing kids into this mass feminist doctrine of male hate. its not only factually inaccurate, revisionist biased retelling of history. but its divisive and riddle with hate and lies. do I generalise , well yes, because ive barely met a woman alive who doesn't agree with the feminist movement and no women in power are doing a damn thing for men, especially suicidal men. as ive stated many times, men are not allowed to speak out or they will be wrongly labelled sexist mysoginist pigs..at which point they lose their jobs careers incomes homes and their kids and their families....im afraid this is the fate that awaits more and more men. men aren't allowed to do anything about it and women cant be bothered to do anything about it, so itll get worse and worse

[Niamh.]

There you go again blaming everything on women. As a woman myself I find it hard to have a reasonable discussion with you about this subject because all you do is insult women instead of focusing on the issue your discussing itself, I find it offensive to be lumped into the box you've put all women in

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

There you go again blaming everything on women. As a woman myself I find it hard to have a reasonable discussion with you about this subject because all you do is insult women instead of focusing on the issue your discussing itself, I find it offensive to be lumped into the box you've put all women in

I find it offensive that women have done nothing for men on these issues. ive been sworn at on this thread and called a mysoginstic pig etc im the one who should feel insulted. I am also insulted by your rather fickle attitude to the matter with your lols and inappropriate smileys......I suggest IF you actually cared about it, write to your mps oh and speak to your sons about the issue too

[Ammi]

..you're right, truth..this is a serious issue and something that should be addressed but you're somehow laying blame or cause to be with females..?..and the statistics don't say that..

Prof Louis Appleby, the chair of the National Suicide Prevention Advisory Group in England, said: “Men are more at risk of suicide because they are more likely to drink heavily, use self-harm methods that are more often fatal and are reluctant to seek help.

“Fifteen years ago the rates among men under 35 were brought down sharply by tackling these problems and we need to use this success to address the problems of the new highest risk group, middle-aged men.

...I do agree that with divorce/separation issues, fathers can often get a fairly rough deal but fathers can also leave their children so it's not a general thing..as can mothers leave their children as well..I had a friend/a female who committed suicide not that long ago and it made me aware of how little help and support there is in this country for mental health issues..I think that's something that has just got progressively worse and is in itself at crisis point or becoming so...I think that's where the focus should be with this and speaking to MPs etc about it and trying to raise awareness that this just can't go on...


..yeah, sometimes males get a bad deal in some areas and sometimes females get a bad deal in others, it really isn't a general thing with one sex or another...but really I do understand your frustration and there are so many areas with mental health issues that should be looked at..why not take those frustrations and the points you make and try to have them heard by the people who have the power to look at these problems/use them to raise awareness ....

[Niamh.]

Exactly Ammi. Also, I think it was Vicky who brought up the phrase "man up" , in my experience it's mainly men who use this to other men. It's not just women who put pressure on men, men often put pressure on other men and feel like it's "a womens thing" to talk about how they're feeling and seek help if they're feeling depressed. I don't understand how all the blame for mens mental health issues can be laid solely at womens feet.

And truth, I am extremely close to my son, why do you assume I don't talk to him about how he's feeling? Of course I do

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by the truth

ive never even seen sexism against women in my country? never....where I live women get the right to do everything...in work women wpout filth and speak about their private sex lives...men never EVER do that....women generalize about men all day every day...the women say nonsense like men are idiots men don't understand this or that....men could never do this job...all men are bastards etc etc it just goes on and on........even behind closed doors, ive never ever witnessed any man abuse any woman...though ive seen a lot of women steal from men, shout and verbally abuse men for years and years until in the end in some cases it reduced the men to dirt....that's what ive seen, that's real politics.

You've honestly never seen or heard a man abuse a woman? You've never heard a guy talk about his sex life with his mates? I'm sorry I find that very, very hard to believe. In a previous post you have mentioned medical secretaries asking for personal information, in my experience that is not exclusive to men, I have been asked very personal questions by medical secretaries.

As the mother of a son I of course have sympathy with the issues that men face and ensure that he knows he can speak to me about anything at any time but for you to say that it is solely down to women to put this right and men are not listened to, I cannot agree. It is not that long ago that women didn't have a voice nor be allowed to be heard and they went out and fought for (and died for) that right.

I would also be interested to know if you have written to your MP about these issues and if you have had a response from them?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

There you go again blaming everything on women. As a woman myself I find it hard to have a reasonable discussion with you about this subject because all you do is insult women instead of focusing on the issue your discussing itself, I find it offensive to be lumped into the box you've put all women in

I actually think The Truth makes a good illustrative flipped example of the issue with feminism, to be fair. This is more or less my experience of discussing feminist issues with most feminists, and the but I've made bold is pretty much what it usually feels like to try. Or even to observe.

Note that I don't think the truth is actually trying to portray satire, I'm sure he actually believes a lot of what he's saying, but then, so do "forceful feminists"...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I actually think The Truth makes a good illustrative flipped example of the issue with feminism, to be fair. This is more or less my experience of discussing feminist issues with most feminists, and the but I've made bold is pretty much what it usually feels like to try. Or even to observe.

Note that I don't think the truth is actually trying to portray satire, I'm sure he actually believes a lot of what he's saying, but then, so do "forceful feminists"...

I guess a "forceful feminist" is just a nice word for a sexist woman though. Feminism in the true sense of the word should just be about equality imo and I strongly disagree that male suicide rates are up because a minority of forceful feminists have taken over the world. That's not helpful to the issue at all imo

[user104658]

I guess though, my sense of self and identity is quite gender-neutral and "I am a man / a male" is a fairly irrelevant statement, to me, when talking about who I am. I'm an individualist and tend to look at almost every issue completely "gender blind". The only responsibility that comes into it is with each individual, for themselves. I am no more responsible for the actions of "some men" than I am for the actions of "some sharks"... And likewise... I have very little time or understanding for women who feel hurt / offended on behalf of "other women" in situations that don't apply to themselves.

Example: historically, women's political freedoms were oppressed by men. I get that. But Are your political freedoms oppressed? Did I personally oppress them? Have I oppressed anyone's political freedoms? With the answers to those being "no", I reserve the right to take absolutely no responsibility, or feel any "guilt" whatsoever, for the actions of other human beings who also happened to have penises.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I guess though, my sense of self and identity is quite gender-neutral and "I am a man / a male" is a fairly irrelevant statement, to me, when talking about who I am. I'm an individualist and tend to look at almost every issue completely "gender blind". The only responsibility that comes into it is with each individual, for themselves. I am no more responsible for the actions of "some men" than I am for the actions of "some sharks"... And likewise... I have very little time or understanding for women who feel hurt / offended on behalf of "other women" in situations that don't apply to themselves.

Example: historically, women's political freedoms were oppressed by men. I get that. But Are your political freedoms oppressed? Did I personally oppress them? Have I oppressed anyone's political freedoms? With the answers to those being "no", I reserve the right to take absolutely no responsibility, or feel any "guilt" whatsoever, for the actions of other human beings who also happened to have penises.

Really , you're just illustrating the point that many women have made here... Some women have a problem with men, most don't and care deeply for at least one and probably more men in their lives. And yet thetruth's posts are clearly anti ALL women.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I guess though, my sense of self and identity is quite gender-neutral and "I am a man / a male" is a fairly irrelevant statement, to me, when talking about who I am. I'm an individualist and tend to look at almost every issue completely "gender blind". The only responsibility that comes into it is with each individual, for themselves. I am no more responsible for the actions of "some men" than I am for the actions of "some sharks"... And likewise... I have very little time or understanding for women who feel hurt / offended on behalf of "other women" in situations that don't apply to themselves.

Example: historically, women's political freedoms were oppressed by men. I get that. But Are your political freedoms oppressed? Did I personally oppress them? Have I oppressed anyone's political freedoms? With the answers to those being "no", I reserve the right to take absolutely no responsibility, or feel any "guilt" whatsoever, for the actions of other human beings who also happened to have penises.

I can accept that, I'm totally with you on the the whole individual idea....which is probably why it bothers me when people want to generalise me by my gender, if that makes sense?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I guess a "forceful feminist" is just a nice word for a sexist woman though. Feminism in the true sense of the word should just be about equality imo and I strongly disagree that male suicide rates are up because a minority of forceful feminists have taken over the world. That's not helpful to the issue at all imo

In my experience, unfortunately, the vast majority of active feminism is sexist. Ranging from "a little bit" to "extremely" - but feminist articles (propaganda?) is constantly springing up and being "liked" all over my Facebook and I'm genuinely struggling to think of a recent example that wasn't sexist or didn't make me feel "lumped into a box" with other penis-wielders as described above.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In my experience, unfortunately, the vast majority of active feminism is sexist. Ranging from "a little bit" to "extremely" - but feminist articles (propaganda?) is constantly springing up and being "liked" all over my Facebook and I'm genuinely struggling to think of a recent example that wasn't sexist or didn't make me feel "lumped into a box" with other penis-wielders as described above.

How influential are these feminist groups though really? I can honestly say that I haven't come across any groups like this in my everyday life and do you feel that they're responsible for male suicide rates?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Really , you're just illustrating the point that many women have made here... Some women have a problem with men, most don't and care deeply for at least one and probably more men in their lives. And yet thetruth's posts are clearly anti ALL women.

Like I said, I'm not saying I agree with him, just that he makes a good parallel with the majority of feminist literature. He is frequently ridiculous and completely and utterly one sided and seems to have an uncanny ability to make literally ANYTHING into an issue with "evil women!!!" but... that's what makes it a good parallel.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Like I said, I'm not saying I agree with him, just that he makes a good parallel with the majority of feminist literature. He is frequently ridiculous and completely and utterly one sided and seems to have an uncanny ability to make literally ANYTHING into an issue with "evil women!!!" but... that's what makes it a good parallel.

Yes, I do understand your angle. I think feminism started out as one thing and has grown into a monster. I think of myself as a feminist in as much as I want to enjoy equality at work and in other areas, and equality, as we all know, means being equal with men, not somehow getting one over on them, which seems to be the militant feminist agenda.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, I do understand your angle. I think feminism started out as one thing and has grown into a monster. I think of myself as a feminist in as much as I want to enjoy equality at work and in other areas, and equality, as we all know, means being equal with men, not somehow getting one over on them, which seems to be the militant feminist agenda.

Absolutely agree

[Kizzy]

'Though the suicide rate for women in England and Wales halved between 1971 and 1998, the same period saw the rates for men almost double. After reaching an all time high at 21.1 per 100,000 in both 1992 and 1998, the number of male suicides did begin to decline gradually and in 2005 a 30 per cent reduction was recorded, which many attributed in part to the Government's National Suicide Prevention Strategy. However, men still remain far more vulnerable to death by suicide than women, accounting for 75 per cent of all suicides in the UK. In 2008 the Office for National Statistics recorded 17.7 suicides per 100,000 in men compared to 5.4 per 100,000 in women.'

I think this shows that social reforms and the pill helped reduce suicide rates for women yet at the same time a suicide rates for men rose. maybe due to the financial pressure of divorce, more equality in the workplace and pay the balance of power shifted, it's not womens fault they were and are subjugated for time.
The fairly recent rise in male suicide rates show something has gone very wrong, but whats the answer, to again denigrate women? No, bolster men and attempt to find a soloution, both sexes have equal responsibility in this.

http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/menstats.html

[rubymoo]

I feel the problem is that men don't communicate as freely as women, if a couple have marital problems then the woman is more likely to go to friends/relatives for advice, whereas a man won't even divulge to his friends that there are problems, why this is i don't know.

The presenter in the BBC programme who'd lost his dad to suicide, stated that they were a happy family, there weren't any marital issues, it was only after his passing it was found that he was infact having affairs, the wife loved her husband (the presenters dad) and had no idea the inner struggles he was facing.

Statistically women try to commit suicide more than men, but the method they use often fails (overdose) whereas the methods used by men are often immediately fatal (hanging/shooting/jumping off buildings/lying on train tracks etc) this is the reason that statistically men have a higher suicide rate.

[Vanessa]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I feel the problem is that men don't communicate as freely as women, if a couple have marital problems then the woman is more likely to go to friends/relatives for advice, whereas a man won't even divulge to his friends that there are problems, why this is i don't know.

The presenter in the BBC programme who'd lost his dad to suicide, stated that they were a happy family, there weren't any marital issues, it was only after his passing it was found that he was infact having affairs, the wife loved her husband (the presenters dad) and had no idea the inner struggles he was facing.

Statistically women try to commit suicide more than men, but the method they use often fails (overdose) whereas the methods used by men are often immediately fatal (hanging/shooting/jumping off buildings/lying on train tracks etc) this is the reason that statistically men have a higher suicide rate.

This is true. I used to do that, but now that i talk about how i feel it helps me to be stronger. Men don't talk about their problems.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I feel the problem is that men don't communicate as freely as women, if a couple have marital problems then the woman is more likely to go to friends/relatives for advice, whereas a man won't even divulge to his friends that there are problems, why this is i don't know.

The presenter in the BBC programme who'd lost his dad to suicide, stated that they were a happy family, there weren't any marital issues, it was only after his passing it was found that he was infact having affairs, the wife loved her husband (the presenters dad) and had no idea the inner struggles he was facing.

Statistically women try to commit suicide more than men, but the method they use often fails (overdose) whereas the methods used by men are often immediately fatal (hanging/shooting/jumping off buildings/lying on train tracks etc) this is the reason that statistically men have a higher suicide rate.

Attempted suicides by overdose are often not "true" suicide attempts (although they do often result in death anyway) but are more ambiguous combination of a cry for help and "not really caring" if death is the end result.

If someone is 100% sure and determined to kill themselves then they will almost always succeed on the first attempt.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Attempted suicides by overdose are often not "true" suicide attempts (although they do often result in death anyway) but are more ambiguous combination of a cry for help and "not really caring" if death is the end result.

If someone is 100% sure and determined to kill themselves then they will almost always succeed on the first attempt.

I don't know If I agree with that, killing yourself by hanging or slitting your wrists etc sounds terrifying and hard to do to yourself. Taking pills seems like the least scary way to do it

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't know If I agree with that, killing yourself by hanging or slitting your wrists etc sounds terrifying and hard to do to yourself. Taking pills seems like the least scary way to do it

It's by far the least effective though, people's bodies react differently and a small dose that might kill one person might not harm another. Even more tragically, taking a massive overdose and surviving it can do untold damage to the liver or kidneys so the person can end up alive, but cripplingly unwell, or even dying slowly a few months later. The worst cases are when people take an overdose, wake up in hospital and realise they are glad to be alive, and are then told that the damage that's been caused is going to kill them anyway. Truly horrific, much more terrifying than something like a shotgun in the mouth or jumping off a bridge. But then maybe there's a misunderstanding with how effective it is? I don't know. The Media tends to portray suicide by overdose as the "close call" that people recover from so I tend to assume that people actually misunderstand just how much damage CAN be done.

[Kizzy]

Anyhoo... If anyone is feeling conflicted let's not give them any ideas eh? :/

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Anyhoo... If anyone is feeling conflicted let's not give them any ideas eh? :/

Yeah, this conversation is getting a little bleak