[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?


Edit. Ahh you were meaning gender as in sex. Mixing them up again. Well...not really. I AM the sex I am...thats kind of it. Only time I have ever 'felt female' was when giving birth, breastfeeding and such.

This gender/sex mixup thing confuses me as I thought til last year that they both meant the same thing and that gender was just a polite way of saying sex

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?

Just try and imagine a world where people think differently to this, and they do. Im not male because I like blue and I have a killer beard, I'm male because I would feel uncomfortable in my own skin if I had a vagina tomorrow, I wouldnt want to visit female bathrooms, I wouldnt want to appear female - I would want to continue to act like myself (which is far from the stereotypical male) and I would struggle to do that if I was to look in the mirror and see something which doesnt even closely resemble how I inherently feel.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?


Edit. Ahh you were meaning gender as in sex. Mixing them up again. Well...not really. I AM the sex I am...thats kind of it. Only time I have ever 'felt female' was when giving birth, breastfeeding and such.

This gender/sex mixup thing confuses me as I thought til last year that they both meant the same thing and that gender was just a polite way of saying sex

I find this alien to how I think and feel about being a woman. I love being a female so thank God I wasn't born a male. I enjoy the huge array of clothes I can wear. I like dressing up and going out on the arm of a strong man (my husband) I love that he loves my femininity.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

I'd feel the same as Vicky on it tbh, obviously it would be weird if I was actually a woman yesterday though and a man the next day because I would have actually phsically and mentally experianced being a woman and then had a body swap so not really tbe same thing

[Crimson Dynamo]

I guess the whole debate lacks scientific research and so people can just say things and get away with it.

[Vicky.]

Wait. Are you taking transwoman/man to mean someone who has had (or seriously plans to) have SRS? If so..I think we might be on the same ****ing page anyway

This does not represent the majority of trans gender people though. The huge majority have no plans for SRS or anything and don't even suffer sex dysphoria :S these are the ones I can make no sense of

Edit again. I have totally brainfarted and lost my train of thought as having so many convos at once. Going in the bath then trying to sort this out. Ugh.

[Saph]

I dont really get why some people think they have the right to tell others how they should or shouldnt be/feel.. being part of a younger generation, stuff like transgenders arent really a big deal, its just how some people are.. In 20/30 years time i'm pretty sure it will just be the norm

its a shame that people like caitlyn jenner make it look like a quick overnight decision, i'm sure its a huge mental stress for most trans people. Imagine waking up tomorrow as the opposite gender to what you are now, you'd know that it wasnt right and wasnt 'you', thats how they wouldve felt everyday of their lives

[arista]

"Going in the bath then trying to sort this out. Ugh. "


How Nice Vicky

[Vicky.]

Right yeah I was getting debates mixed up as I thought

In short..I agree with Jenni.

I cannot come up with any definition for 'woman' that would involve transwomen. Nor the same for man/transman. The only separation I can go on is biological sex. Still willing to hear others views though

And I still do not think 'trans' can exist without sex dysphoria. So those who do not suffer sex dysphoria yet claim to be trans (eg, Danielle Muscato...anyone who believes in 'lady dick') have ulterior motives and are co-opting the struggles of transsexual people. And are just enforcing rigid sex stereotypes that we need to move the **** away from

I would loved to go back to being a good little liberal on this topic. I really would. But honestly, it will end very very badly for females. Won't affect males as much..but could still cause damage somewhere along the line.

[arista]

"In short..I agree with Jenni."


Yes I think many of us do,
Vicky

[Kizzy]

I'm going to attempt to put my view as simply as I can, I think you can be born male and female, and you ca choose to be male or female.

But for a male to become a man and a female to become a woman I think that happens via socialisation over the course of your life. So in short only males and females born into these genders can have the experience which shape us interpersonally and intrapersonally.

As said however people are identifying as trans younger and younger, so this would be new territory, they won't necessarily have that whole issue of living a large part of their lives as one gender before transitioning, therefore would I consider those 'women'?
I'm inclined to think not, as for me I just cannot separate the female to woman aspect and indicates a new term is warranted.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm going to attempt to put my view as simply as I can, I think you can be born male and female, and you ca choose to be male or female.

But for a male to become a man and a female to become a woman I think that happens via socialisation over the course of your life. So in short only males and females born into these genders can have the experience which shape us interpersonally and intrapersonally.

As said however people are identifying as trans younger and younger, so this would be new territory, they won't necessarily have that whole issue of living a large part of their lives as one gender before transitioning, therefore would I consider those 'women'?
I'm inclined to think not, as for me I just cannot separate the female to woman aspect and indicates a new term is warranted.

The problem, particularly for mature men, is, they normally have all the features of a man and so even if they do transition successfully, without cosmetic surgery they will always look like a cock in a frock. And then there's a double problem. No matter how much they transform their face and their body, they will still have the horrors of a masculine voice.

Do these masculine features and a deep voice make them less acceptable as women?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The problem, particularly for mature men, is, they normally have all the features of a man and so even if they do transition successfully, without cosmetic surgery they will always look like a cock in a frock. And then there's a double problem. No matter how much they transform their face and their body, they will still have the horrors of a masculine voice.

Do these masculine features and a deep voice make them less acceptable as women?

Not for me no, even if you looked like a supermodel after transitioning I would have no issue accepting a person as female, that I don't have any qualms about, although I wouldn't see them as a woman either.
However you want to live is ok with me.

[Ronald.]

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Ronald.

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

It will be to some bleeding liberal.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Ronald.

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

[Ronald.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

Good question. Thanks for clearing that up. R.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

Probably because its been normalized for females to wear stereotypically male clothing over the years. There were huge pushes for women to be accepted wearing trousers (and some places still dont bloody allow it and force skirts ) where there has not been a similar movement for men who want to wear skirts and that.

[Livia]

The first thing I want to say is that, if someone's life can be improved by them living as a member of the sex opposite to that which they were born to, then I would encourage them to do that. It's such a short life, people should do whatever they can to be happy.

That said, I personally do not consider transsexuals to be "real" women, they are transsexuals. As people have said, the transition from girl to woman and the experiences you go through are important elements of what makes you a woman. As Kizzy said, as people are identifying with the opposite sex earlier and earlier, this might change.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The first thing I want to say is that, if someone's life can be improved by them living as a member of the sex opposite to that which they were born to, then I would encourage them to do that. It's such a short life, people should do whatever they can to be happy.

That said, I personally do not consider transsexuals to be "real" women, they are transsexuals. As people have said, the transition from girl to woman and the experiences you go through are important elements of what makes you a woman. As Kizzy said, as people are identifying with the opposite sex earlier and earlier, this might change.

That kind of scares me a bit though, I'm not keen on children being encouraged to transition into another gender, they're too young imo

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That kind of scares me a bit though, I'm not keen on children being encouraged to transition into another gender, they're too young imo

Yeah, I see that.

Half of me thinks that kids just want to be different... stand out... might want to transition without actually knowing what it means... It must be a nightmare if it's your child.