[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And there are plenty of trans people who are willing to discuss it and share their experiences, but they’re conveniently ignored in favour of highlighting those extreme minorities that name call and troll people online, to push a certain narrative, why are trans people and advocates held to a higher standard of how they should compromise and listen, to those who actively want their rights changed or taken away?

There was a transwoman on GMB.who happened to back JK Rowling

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

There was a transwoman on GMB.who happened to back JK Rowling

Okay? Trump has black supporters, what difference does that make?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Okay? Trump has black supporters, what difference does that make?

So you've just said Trans people are willing to discuss it and speak about their experiences, I name one who has on the same show but her experiences don't count because she doesn't share your opinion on it....okay

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So you've just said Trans people are willing to discuss it and speak about their experiences, I name one who has on the same show but her experiences don't count because she doesn't share your opinion on it....okay

That’s not what I said though was it? You said a trans woman agreed with JK, as if that absolves her of everything people feel about her, not all trans people will agree on everything.

My point was, trump has black supporters, but it doesn’t make him any less racist.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And there are plenty of trans people who are willing to discuss it and share their experiences, but they’re conveniently ignored in favour of highlighting those extreme minorities that name call and troll people online, to push a certain narrative, why are trans people and advocates held to a higher standard of how they should compromise and listen, to those who actively want their rights changed or taken away?

Online spaces are hardly the best place to have any discussion and that's actually one of my criticisms of JK Rowling; taking this to her Twitter which obviously has absolutely massive mainstream reach.

But the rhetoric and actions when it comes to trans activism are also affecting academics, professionals, evidence-based practice and areas that have direct safeguarding implications and that, I believe, is what has many women and child advocates very worried and what I think they frankly should be concerned about. "But it's offensive and transphobic to say that there might be safeguarding concerns!!" just isn't good enough. It doesn't matter that it's offensive. People's lived experience is important, people's opinions are valuable but the second that start affecting or seeking to affect professional spaces or policy whilst refusing proper scrutiny it is a step too far... And that absolutely is happening. Self ID is an absolute minefield and nightmare for safeguarding and things like inpatient mental health. Universal unquestioning acceptance (as pushed by mermaids) is a complete disaster for child mental health. These are just a few examples of stances that are branded "transphobic" even when it's qualified professionals involved in the discussion.

[Elliot]

People wanted fleshed out good lgbtq representation, not off hand pandering

[user104658]

I think one of the key issues here is that for there to be a discussion at all there needs to be acknowledgement that many women (and others in support) have concerns, and that having concerns is not inherently transphobic. And there needs to be acknowledgement that transpeople obviously have concerns about their own rights too. And acceptance that those concerns have areas where they collide in complicated ways.

There is no discussion to be had with anyone who can't accept those basic premises to be honest, on either side.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think one of the key issues here is that for there to be a discussion at all there needs to be acknowledgement that many women (and others in support) have concerns, and that having concerns is not inherently transphobic. And there needs to be acknowledgement that transpeople obviously have concerns about their own rights too. And acceptance that those concerns have areas where they collide in complicated ways.

There is no discussion to be had with anyone who can't accept those basic premises to be honest, on either side.

absolutely agree

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think one of the key issues here is that for there to be a discussion at all there needs to be acknowledgement that many women (and others in support) have concerns, and that having concerns is not inherently transphobic. And there needs to be acknowledgement that transpeople obviously have concerns about their own rights too. And acceptance that those concerns have areas where they collide in complicated ways.

There is no discussion to be had with anyone who can't accept those basic premises to be honest, on either side.

Pretty much perfect post imo

[Tom4784]

I enjoy the stories but I won't put another penny in her pockets. I can appreciate Harry Potter and will continue to appreciate it since I already own the books and not using them doesn't really affect her but I won't contribute anymore money to the franchise.

[Liam-]

People can have as many discussions as they like, that’s not really the issue, people wanting pre-existing rights for a minority to change because it suddenly makes them uncomfortable, it’s discriminatory, no matter which way you swing it.

I don’t feel like transpeople that disagree with the likes of JK would ever get a fair shot of putting their points across, hence why people choose instead to focus on the negative minority, with the trolls as if they represent the entire trans population.

Saying the extremely vocal minority are going to do more harm to the trans community than the people wanting to strip their rights away is to me completely disingenuous and just a way to shift eyes away from people’s ignorance

I know I get called all sorts when I do this, but I’ll do it again, what would people’s genuine reaction be to gays rights being questioned because straight people don’t want to be associated with them?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Liam-

People can have as many discussions as they like, that’s not really the issue, people wanting pre-existing rights for a minority to change because it suddenly makes them uncomfortable, it’s discriminatory, no matter which way you swing it.

I don’t feel like transpeople that disagree with the likes of JK would ever get a fair shot of putting their points across, hence why people choose instead to focus on the negative minority, with the trolls as if they represent the entire trans population.

Saying the extremely vocal minority are going to do more harm to the trans community than the people wanting to strip their rights away is to me completely disingenuous and just a way to shift eyes away from people’s ignorance.

I know I get called all sorts when I do this, but I’ll do it again, what would people’s genuine reaction be to gays rights being questioned because straight people don’t want to be associated with them?

What rights? Because those are conflicting rights as far as I can see. Sex is a protected characteristic in law, gender is not, so how is gender trumping sex in sex based sports for example? Also, people only "suddenly" felt uncomfortable when self ID became a thing, which is not legal actually in the UK as far as I'm aware? so that wouldn't be a pre-existing right

I'm not even going to dignify the last part of your post with a response tbqh

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

People can have as many discussions as they like, that’s not really the issue, people wanting pre-existing rights for a minority to change because it suddenly makes them uncomfortable, it’s discriminatory, no matter which way you swing it.

You mean like women losing their single sex spaces?

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

You mean like women losing their single sex spaces?

Like?

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Like?

Sports, bathrooms, changing areas. Transwomen having access to those compromises the female-only nature of those places.

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Sports, bathrooms, changing areas. Transwomen having access to those compromises the female-only nature of those places.

Trans women have been using female changing areas and bathrooms for as long as I can remember, are you suggesting trans women, even those who’ve had the full procedure shouldn’t be allowed to use them anymore? Because that would be discriminatory Oliver

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

People can have as many discussions as they like, that’s not really the issue, people wanting pre-existing rights for a minority to change because it suddenly makes them uncomfortable, it’s discriminatory, no matter which way you swing it.

Thats not all that's happening and a blinkered insistence that it is doesn't really help anyone in my opinion.

I think there's a lot of conflation with other minority groups on this issue and a reluctance to accept that in some really fundamental ways, it is a very different issue.

Comparing to gay rights, for example. So someone comes out as a gay man... They continue to occupy the "man" space, obviously still being a man, and part of that discussion of issues that affect men.

They also create the secondary space "gay men". Only gay men are in that space. They rightly then get to insist that gay men's voices are the valid voice in that space, because it is their space.


Trans is inherently more complicated on a fundamental level. A person identifies as trans - what space do they occupy? Firstly they occupy the secondary space "transpeople" as above, transpeople are the valid voice there, in issues affecting transpeople only. Whether or not they continue to keep a foot in the "men" space I would say is optional; their voice is obviously just as valid on for example men's health issues but I appreciate that many don't want to keep a stake there and that's totally individual choice. Now the contentious part; the space they're seeking to move to, unlike gay men, is NOT unoccupied space. The space they want to occupy is "women". And that also, is fine! However once they are in that space they have to accept that it is NOT empty space, and that they DO have to share the conversation with the women who already occupy that space, on issues that affect both. There's no reasonable way around it.

[DouglasS]

In 5 years time it will be transphobic to say ‘give birth’ or ‘labour’ or ‘pregnant’

Probably genetics will be a controversial subject also because it will upset peoples choices.


People obviously have an issue with facts and science...

[Liam-]

And what about big women that are strong? There are some women out there than can naturally hold their own against any man, should they be disqualified from things just because they’re stronger than an ‘average’ woman?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

There are some women out there than can naturally hold their own against any man

Thats the thing though. No, there are not. There are professional female sportspeople who obviously can hold their own against any man casually playing the sport. There is no physical sport where any female athlete can compete with the top male tier. Those are just the facts. It's been tried and tested. The Williams Sisters had their arses handed to them by low-ranked male professional tennis players and they're significantly stronger than 99.9% of other female players.

[Marsh.]

Declining to actually argue her points by dismissing them as not her real opinions, just inventions to promote a book is the most ridiculous take on this I've read.

[Marsh.]

Also, from what I've read of this book there is no "trans villain" it's literally a serial killer using disguises to fool people. A long standing crime fiction trope.