[Ammi]

....and believe in heaven/hell etc...do you still believe we have a soul/spirit/essence/energy..however you think of it..and what do you think happens to it when we die...

...I don't believe in God as the bible tells us to..or at least as I was brought up to believe....but I do believe that what makes us, who we are..our personalities, emotions etc has to go somewhere when we die..I don't think it just disappears with our bodies either....whether it's a reincarnation thing and it gets 'passed on', I haven't really considered too deeply...because I don't know whether I believe in reincarnation.....

..what do you think happens to our 'spirit' when we die...?....

(this isn't so much a religion thing, so I wasn't sure which section to put it in)

Youtube video

May I?

There is no reason to believe in any kind of soul/spirit/presence, so finding somewhere for the magical spirit to hide away seems like an unnecessary problem requiring an unnecessary solution .

We're all a product of our brains and genes. That's where our emotions/personalities come from, and when the brain shuts down, the corpses we leave behind rot away.

[Ammi]

..yeah but the corpses are only the vessels JHC..I believe it's the spirit/essence that makes us what/who we are...that's the sparkle behind the eye type thing...the bodies would be dormant anyway, without that, so to me, a body once perished is irrelevant anyway...I've often wondered that when I've seen a dead person...that person isn't there anymore, but the body remains...empty....I wonder what happens to them all.....

Nothing.

The "glint in the eye," as you put it, is the personality. That is a product of genetic wiring and direct experiences growing up, and cobbled together by the brain to reflect out our histories.

Otherwise you have to go into the galactical justice system that gives some people a glint, but others a murderous glint. If we accept that we aren't special, and are just bog standard machines, but carrying around the most complicated structure in the universe in our heads, then we are exactly what you would expect.

As the late, great, Christopher Hitchens wrote, “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[Ammi]

..if we weren't special though then we wouldn't be unique...and we are all unique....but yes..there are 'good glints' and 'bad glints'...extremes..but, on the whole I think most people have a bit of both, which is how it should be to create a balanced personality....

..and I also don't think we always need evidence for everything...not when it comes to spritual/emotional things....

Originally Posted by Ammi

..if we weren't special though then we wouldn't be unique...and we are all unique....but yes..there are 'good glints' and 'bad glints'...extremes..but, on the whole I think most people have a bit of both, which is how it should be to create a balanced personality....

..and I also don't think we always need evidence for everything...not when it comes to spritual/emotional things....

Of course we're all unique. In the same way every dog or cat is unique.

I think when postulating about potential zones that spirits can fly off to after our bodies die, it's pretty critical to have some kind of evidence otherwise the scenario can be played out into absurdity.

I don't understand why people want there to be something else. Live your life, try to do well and have a family (if that's your bag) and then our genes kill us off to make way for future generations. It's how nature works, and nature, apart from being a cruel bitch, is ruthlessly efficient when it comes to death

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=Ammi;5697743]..if we weren't special though then we wouldn't be unique...and we are all unique....but yes..there are 'good glints' and 'bad glints'...extremes..but, on the whole I think most people have a bit of both, which is how it should be to create a balanced personality....

..and I also don't think we always need evidence for everything...not when it comes to spritual/emotional things....[/QUOTE]

I agree fully with this. Really good point.

[joeysteele]

I don't believe things happened by accident, I do believe in some force that planned life.

I was brought up RC and I love most of all the teachings as expressed in the words attributed to Jesus. Only the words he has reportedly said, not Saint Paul with his bad tempers and getting up one morning preaching love and brotherhood for all then another day in a foul mood, condemning all and sundry.
That is where the Bible starts to fall away due to inconsistency.

Whether it is a God or a force,that I don't know and no one has a blueprint of what happened or what then happens too after we die.
It was claimed evolution was proven and that evolution proves creation by a force wrong,not so, for something to evolve it must first exist,so the answer still remains as to how whatever evolved came to be in existence in the first place.

As to after we die, I like to think there is a part of us, energy maybe, that remains in some dormant state, that other energy that we have been close to also will be gathered to that mass of energy for whatever in the far off future.

Sometimes fiction carries more sensible answers or possible interpetrations of possible answers, such as in the film 'Ghost' at the end, where he says he has to go now but that you take the love with you.
I don't believe after death that we go and have parties and meals and skip around all day in heaven but I can believe part of our energy goes on for some reason and that those we are connected to,then their energy is also afterwards gathered all together.

I could be totally wrong obviously but that's where I am personally as to any faith I have at the present time anyway.

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I don't believe things happened by accident, I do believe in some force that planned life.

I was brought up RC and I love most of all the teachings as expressed in the words attributed to Jesus. Only the words he has reportedly said, not Saint Paul with his bad tempers and getting up one morning preaching love and brotherhood for all then another day in a foul mood, condemning all and sundry.
That is where the Bible starts to fall away due to inconsistency.

Whether it is a God or a force,that I don't know and no one has a blueprint of what happened or what then happens too after we die.
It was claimed evolution was proven and that evolution proves creation by a force wrong,not so, for something to evolve it must first exist,so the answer still remains as to how whatever evolved came to be in existence in the first place.

As to after we die, I like to think there is a part of us, energy maybe, that remains in some dormant state, that other energy that we have been close to also will be gathered to that mass of energy for whatever in the far off future.

Sometimes fiction carries more sensible answers or possible interpetrations of possible answers, such as in the film 'Ghost' at the end, where he says he has to go now but that you take the love with you.
I don't believe after death that we go and have parties and meals and skip around all day in heaven but I can believe part of our energy goes on for some reason and that those we are connected to,then their energy is also afterwards gathered all together.

I could be totally wrong obviously but that's where I am personally as to any faith I have at the present time anyway.

You made an error on your evolution point. What you're talking about is abiogenesis, which is the process by which something can turn from chemistry to life. Scientists don't quite understand this yet, but they are getting closer. Within your lifetime, this process will be fully understood.

Evolution as a theory is completely sound. You wouldn't jump off a building because you weren't quite sure about Newton's theories. Darwins theory is backed up by science across many disciplines, including geology, paleontology and biology.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

You made an error on your evolution point. What you're talking about is abiogenesis, which is the process by which something can turn from chemistry to life. Scientists don't quite understand this yet, but they are getting closer. Within your lifetime, this process will be fully understood.

Evolution as a theory is completely sound. You wouldn't jump of a building because you weren't quite sure about Newton's theories. Darwins theory is backed up by science across many disciplines, including geology, paleontology and biology.

It is claimed by some people that evolution disproves the creation argument,I have had many debates with those who believe in evolution and are adamant it rules out creation.
My point is simple, for something to evolve it or something it evolves from must first exist,so for me personally evolution does not in itself disprove the creative element.

Everyone has their views and interpetrations as to how they see things, you accept a different take as to evolution however I was relating my point above as to my discussions on this topic with others who also in their personal view take a different interpetration as to your own stance as to evolution.

Science may well come up with stronger evidence as you point out in your post, they have not as yet conclusively done so though.
Therefore others will form and develop their own views in the full lack of such evidence until it does come.
Science too though, has been known to at times backtrack on things it has said has been so in the past.
Scientists also disagree with other scientists. Who do we believe,who is right and who is wrong.
I go with feeling,which is what my post stated, that is where I am at at this point in time as to any faith or whatever people may want to call it.

A silly point maybe to make now but I am going to do so,
If I am watcHing a quiz on TV or doing a quiz with others, when a question is asked, I can have one of 3 feelings, I know for sure the answer so answer right off, I am not sure so take time to work it out,maybe never doing so or I haven't a clue so I say nothing feeling I would be totally wrong.
My feeling as to creation and what may or may not happen after we die, is as I put in my post,my feeling is confident enough for me to say that is where I am at the present time.
Just as you are equally confident in your position on things too.
It makes neither of us right but neither of us wrong either.

[Kazanne]

I believe in reincarnation,obviously not as we were but I do not believe we go through life and gain all that knowlege just for it to disappear,what would be the point?i believe that each life is given to us to be a better person,I believe there is a higher level than us.

Then why do we have to learn the same lessons as children every time? Surely by the 5th/6th reincarnation, we'd all be child geniuses.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

Then why do we have to learn the same lessons as children every time? Surely by the 5th/6th reincarnation, we'd all be child geniuses.

Everyones life is different,maybe we need different experiences as children too as what we are taught when we are children goes a long way to how we are as adults.everything from any former life would no longer be there.

Originally Posted by Kazcracker

Everyones life is different,maybe we need different experiences as children too as what we are taught when we are children goes a long way to how we are as adults.everything from any former life would no longer be there.

I agree about the first point.

So are we maintaining all of our knowledge from previous lives, or is every life a new beginning and an opportunity for a unique individual to choose their own path in life? They can't be both.

[Livia]

Perhaps you need to have faith to believe your spirit goes on. Unfortunately, if you do have faith you aren't able to discuss this - and other - subjects because those who don't will do everything they can to dismiss your beliefs, usually by telling you that your loved ones are gone forever and are rotting in the ground. I don't believe that is true, and all the quotes from other people who also have no faith, no matter how famous they are or were, will not make me believe that death is the end. But if you want to believe it is... knock yourself out.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Livia

Perhaps you need to have faith to believe your spirit goes on. Unfortunately, if you do have faith you aren't able to discuss this - and other - subjects because those who don't will do everything they can to dismiss your beliefs, usually by telling you that your loved ones are gone forever and are rotting in the ground. I don't believe that is true, and all the quotes from other people who also have no faith, no matter how famous they are or were, will not make me believe that death is the end. But if you want to believe it is... knock yourself out.

..I agree with everything you have said...in the words of George Michael, you've got to have faith...and for myself, I don't consider faith to be the same as following a religion...

Originally Posted by Livia

Perhaps you need to have faith to believe your spirit goes on. Unfortunately, if you do have faith you aren't able to discuss this - and other - subjects because those who don't will do everything they can to dismiss your beliefs, usually by telling you that your loved ones are gone forever and are rotting in the ground. I don't believe that is true, and all the quotes from other people who also have no faith, no matter how famous they are or were, will not make me believe that death is the end. But if you want to believe it is... knock yourself out.

I wouldn't say I've done everything I can to dismiss peoples beliefs. I think my point of view is quite clear, but all I've done is lay that down, then ask people about their beliefs.

I don't think it's completely unreasonable asking people to explain what they believe in, and why. If they can't, they can't. They can just say it's just "faith" and we'll move on.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I wouldn't say I've done everything I can to dismiss peoples beliefs. I think my point of view is quite clear, but all I've done is lay that down, then ask people about their beliefs.

I don't think it's completely unreasonable asking people to explain what they believe in, and why. If they can't, they can't. They can just say it's just "faith" and we'll move on.

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

Originally Posted by Livia

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

I've definitely got a big kite, if you want to pull on my string.

You don't have to be blind, but I'll definitely be more attractive if you are.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I've definitely got a big kite, if you want to pull on my string.

You don't have to be blind, but I'll definitely be more attractive if you are.

Yeah, I've heard about you guys with big kites. Takes a lot more tugging to get it up.

Nice body-swerve on the issue though Jesus, you git.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Livia

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

..but also..with a body, for me it's just an empty vessel..and for whatever reason it can't continue, then it's quite straight forward and easy to understand..perhaps it's old and tired..but with a spirit..the essence of a person..the real person they are..that can be bright and healthy up to the last breath...I don't believe it just disappears..I have no idea exactly what happens and I don't think I believe in reincarnation or 'ghosts'..but I do believe it is still there...somewhere....

[Z]

Originally Posted by Livia

It is impossible to explain what faith is. It's like trying to explain what love is. I recall reading something that explained faith as being like a blind man flying a kite. He can't see the kite, but he can feel it pulling on the string.

What a wonderful analogy! I really like that Livia, thank you for sharing .

I was not brought up in a religious household, I'm not of a religion and the only times I've ever been inside any religious institution have been when I was at school and they took us to the church for in-service days. I couldn't even tell you which affiliation the church had, nor do I know very much about Christianity or other religions.

What I do believe, however, stems from my reading of many different great classic works of literature. I remember being 12 years old in a biology lesson at school and being taught about how, if there are too many rabbits one spring, there will be an increase in the number of animals that prey upon rabbits and an increase in diseases that kill rabbits. Nature is constantly balancing itself out. For me, that theory extends to humans. There are WAY too many people in the world, so as a means to balance that imbalance, there has been a rise in the following: incurable (and new) diseases, homosexuality and infertility. I've got nothing to back this up other than my own personal belief in this idea, but to me, it makes sense. People didn't die of cancer hundreds of years ago, because they were dying in wars and of flu outbreaks and of plagues and other ailments. Once our society developed enough to be able to combat these things, did we suddenly stop dying of mystery illnesses? No, the illnesses just got harder to cure. HIV, AIDS, many types of cancer... all of these, to me, seem like modern illnesses. Perhaps people used to die of cancer all the time, they just didn't know it at the time, but certainly it's become more prevalent in modern times. Nature killing people off makes sense. There are too many people in the world. Homosexuality is one surefire way to stop people from reproducing, but with scientific advances allowing even that to happen now, I reckon some new way of stopping people from becoming parents will rise up - leading me to my point about infertility. The existence of IVF alone suggests that infertility was considered a significant problem, so I wouldn't be too shocked if figures for that are on the constant rise, but I've not looked into it so I don't know.

So, to relate all this back to the question of the soul. I don't know if I believe in an all powerful God figure which judges everything we do and decides upon an eternity of happiness or horror for us - that seems to be a societal construct rather than an actual possibility. Why would that make any sense? How do you judge good behaviour and bad behaviour? There are so many shades of grey. Stealing medicine is a bad thing, but if it's to give it to your dying younger brother so that he will live, that is a good thing, right? Life is made up of these sorts of scenarios. It is impossible for someone to live a wholly good or a wholly bad life. I think a person's soul dictates what they are like, even from birth. My parents always tell me that when I was born, I opened my eyes almost immediately and was constantly looking around the hospital to see what was around me, and to this day I'm still a really inquisitive person, always learning new things and taking an interest in the world around me. You could argue that that is a learned behaviour, but my parents are adamant that I was like that from the day I was born, so was that just something I was destined to be? Part of life is trying to figure out what it's about, and I don't especially care if other people can completely refute my point of view, I'm quite pleased with my views on the soul/destiny/nature's law because they make sense and appeal to what I like to view the world as. This is an interesting thread Ammi, thanks for posting!

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Blitzeen

What a wonderful analogy! I really like that Livia, thank you for sharing .

I was not brought up in a religious household, I'm not of a religion and the only times I've ever been inside any religious institution have been when I was at school and they took us to the church for in-service days. I couldn't even tell you which affiliation the church had, nor do I know very much about Christianity or other religions.

What I do believe, however, stems from my reading of many different great classic works of literature. I remember being 12 years old in a biology lesson at school and being taught about how, if there are too many rabbits one spring, there will be an increase in the number of animals that prey upon rabbits and an increase in diseases that kill rabbits. Nature is constantly balancing itself out. For me, that theory extends to humans. There are WAY too many people in the world, so as a means to balance that imbalance, there has been a rise in the following: incurable (and new) diseases, homosexuality and infertility. I've got nothing to back this up other than my own personal belief in this idea, but to me, it makes sense. People didn't die of cancer hundreds of years ago, because they were dying in wars and of flu outbreaks and of plagues and other ailments. Once our society developed enough to be able to combat these things, did we suddenly stop dying of mystery illnesses? No, the illnesses just got harder to cure. HIV, AIDS, many types of cancer... all of these, to me, seem like modern illnesses. Perhaps people used to die of cancer all the time, they just didn't know it at the time, but certainly it's become more prevalent in modern times. Nature killing people off makes sense. There are too many people in the world. Homosexuality is one surefire way to stop people from reproducing, but with scientific advances allowing even that to happen now, I reckon some new way of stopping people from becoming parents will rise up - leading me to my point about infertility. The existence of IVF alone suggests that infertility was considered a significant problem, so I wouldn't be too shocked if figures for that are on the constant rise, but I've not looked into it so I don't know.

So, to relate all this back to the question of the soul. I don't know if I believe in an all powerful God figure which judges everything we do and decides upon an eternity of happiness or horror for us - that seems to be a societal construct rather than an actual possibility. Why would that make any sense? How do you judge good behaviour and bad behaviour? There are so many shades of grey. Stealing medicine is a bad thing, but if it's to give it to your dying younger brother so that he will live, that is a good thing, right? Life is made up of these sorts of scenarios. It is impossible for someone to live a wholly good or a wholly bad life. I think a person's soul dictates what they are like, even from birth. My parents always tell me that when I was born, I opened my eyes almost immediately and was constantly looking around the hospital to see what was around me, and to this day I'm still a really inquisitive person, always learning new things and taking an interest in the world around me. You could argue that that is a learned behaviour, but my parents are adamant that I was like that from the day I was born, so was that just something I was destined to be? Part of life is trying to figure out what it's about, and I don't especially care if other people can completely refute my point of view, I'm quite pleased with my views on the soul/destiny/nature's law because they make sense and appeal to what I like to view the world as. This is an interesting thread Ammi, thanks for posting!

..I think for me Zee, it's not so much about good/bad..heaven/hell..I don't believe in heaven and hell..and I agree that a 'good' person is a person with a good balance..as not many people are purely good or bad...it's more about what makes the person..like you with your curiosity..and other parts of your personality that go to make Zee...the outside Zee..the body..is just a vessel..for me, you could transfer your personality to anyone and it would still be you..a you that looks different, but that's all....

..I don't believe that part of us ever dies..I don't know what happens to it though....

[Niamh.]

hhhmmmm I don't believe in "God" as such, I think when we die that's probably just the end but tbqh the only way I'll no for sure is when I die

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Christmas Neeve

hhhmmmm I don't believe in "God" as such, I think when we die that's probably just the end but tbqh the only way I'll no for sure is when I die

...not before Christmas Niamh..think of Gav and the children....

..does Gav know how to cook a turkey...?...