[user104658]

None of it is referenced or cited at all, though, so how can it dispel anything? He's just saying stuff without providing any links to actual evidence if what he's saying. I'm not saying it's untrue (I couldn't say either way) or badly written... Just that it holds no more weight than any forum or social media post. It's just one guy sharing his thoughts with no verified facts or figures .

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

None of it is referenced or cited at all, though, so how can it dispel anything? He's just saying stuff without providing any links to actual evidence if what he's saying. I'm not saying it's untrue (I couldn't say either way) or badly written... Just that it holds no more weight than any forum or social media post. It's just one guy sharing his thoughts with no verified facts or figures .

It makes sense though and I doubt he would have put it out there if it was incorrect, as I'm sure the main points mentioned could fairly easily be proved or disproved with a bit of research.

https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/pu...e/wtocan_e.pdf

Haven't had time to read the above as too long but would imagine an answer would be in there somewhere.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36029211

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-jobs-and-eu/

[MTVN]

This article was written a month before the referendum even happened

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by MTVN

This article was written a month before the referendum even happened

How does that affect The points he makes though?

[Kizzy]

'With a seat at the WTO, we will no doubt organise better trade deals for Britain instead of being tied to the failed Common Commercial Policy of the EU. Those who support Brexit are the true champions of globalisation, not the failed regionalisation of the EU that has caused abject misery across Europe.'

Well well who would have thought that brexit would mean more globalisation, let's hope these WTO deals are tied to free movement, I'll laugh my arse off.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'With a seat at the WTO, we will no doubt organise better trade deals for Britain instead of being tied to the failed Common Commercial Policy of the EU. Those who support Brexit are the true champions of globalisation, not the failed regionalisation of the EU that has caused abject misery across Europe.'

Well well who would have thought that brexit would mean more globalisation, let's hope these WTO deals are tied to free movement, I'll laugh my arse off.

No they are not!

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

How does that affect The points he makes though?

It dates from a time when both sides were largely speculating and in the context of the referendum campaign. There must be better and more up to date analyses now that we're more than a year past the vote

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

No they are not!

How do you know? It hasn't happened yet :/

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How do you know? It hasn't happened yet :/

Because I have read it somewhere. I'll dig it out later as I don't have time now.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Because I have read it somewhere. I'll dig it out later as I don't have time now.

Deals haven't been struck yet... how can you know things before they happen?
Anything is possible once we enter the WTO.

[Tom4784]

The Referendum happened last year, Brillo. There's no stopping it now. It's going to be a ****show and blaming people who voted Remain won't change a thing.

The Leave camp made their bed, now they must lie in it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Deals haven't been struck yet... how can you know things before they happen?
Anything is possible once we enter the WTO.

Don't know what you are on about - we are already a member of the WTO - have been for years - and free movement is not a requirement.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Don't know what you are on about - we are already a member of the WTO - have been for years - and free movement is not a requirement.

'The UK is still a member of the WTO but sacrificed its independent seat when it joined the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1973 and became represented by the European Union (EU) in external trade negotiations.

By reprising its own membership once it break ties with Brussels, Britain could rely on its membership of the WTO for access to European markets and as a first step towards full-blown free trade agreements with other blocs and countries – including the EU.'

That means we don’t need to start all over again or reapply – we just need to comply with our new obligations.

We don't have a seat, we will have to retake our seat and to do that we will have certain 'obligations' ... Who knows what they will be?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/714...e-trade-nation

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'The UK is still a member of the WTO but sacrificed its independent seat when it joined the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1973 and became represented by the European Union (EU) in external trade negotiations.

By reprising its own membership once it break ties with Brussels, Britain could rely on its membership of the WTO for access to European markets and as a first step towards full-blown free trade agreements with other blocs and countries – including the EU.'

That means we don’t need to start all over again or reapply – we just need to comply with our new obligations.

We don't have a seat, we will have to retake our seat and to do that we will have certain 'obligations' ... Who knows what they will be?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/714...e-trade-nation

Whatever those 'obligations' are they won't be free movement. Free movement is part of EU negotiations, not the WTOs.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Whatever those 'obligations' are they won't be free movement. Free movement is part of EU negotiations, not the WTOs.

That's right, WTO have mode 4 of GATS.

Here's what it will mean for us...

'Race to the bottom'
Mode 4, according to a definition by the WTO, refers to the "temporary movement of natural persons: when independent service providers or employees of a multinational firm temporarily move to another country".
Indian officials called for 40,000 workers to come to Europe under this scheme but EU negotiators said it should be half that. Twelve thousand of those could come to the UK.

Linda Kaucher, an academic studying trade deals, says this would not be good for British workers.
"I think it means an absolute race to the bottom now and in the future for jobs for UK workers," she says. "Numbers studying computing at university have slumped here because people don't want to be in competition with cheap labour. That means a real de-skilling for the country."

In a statement to the EU, she said that "insofar as Mode 4 allows corporations to bring cheaper labour into EU countries and capitalise on the wage differential, workers in the host countries have a great deal to lose".
The TUC has joined the debate, saying it does not want commitments that could lead to the exploitation of Indian workers or those already with access to the UK jobs market.
Owen Tudor, head of the TUC's EU and international relations department, tells the BBC that he is worried about "the under-cutting of the labour market in the UK, particularly for skilled graduates".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20525842

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's right, WTO have mode 4 of GATS.

Here's what it will mean for us...

'Race to the bottom'
Mode 4, according to a definition by the WTO, refers to the "temporary movement of natural persons: when independent service providers or employees of a multinational firm temporarily move to another country".
Indian officials called for 40,000 workers to come to Europe under this scheme but EU negotiators said it should be half that. Twelve thousand of those could come to the UK.

Linda Kaucher, an academic studying trade deals, says this would not be good for British workers.
"I think it means an absolute race to the bottom now and in the future for jobs for UK workers," she says. "Numbers studying computing at university have slumped here because people don't want to be in competition with cheap labour. That means a real de-skilling for the country."

In a statement to the EU, she said that "insofar as Mode 4 allows corporations to bring cheaper labour into EU countries and capitalise on the wage differential, workers in the host countries have a great deal to lose".
The TUC has joined the debate, saying it does not want commitments that could lead to the exploitation of Indian workers or those already with access to the UK jobs market.
Owen Tudor, head of the TUC's EU and international relations department, tells the BBC that he is worried about "the under-cutting of the labour market in the UK, particularly for skilled graduates".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20525842

I really don't see that that would cause any significant issues as (from what I can tell from that and a couple of other documents I have read - not the easiest read) Mode 4 only includes; temporary movement, in practice highly skilled such as managers, executives and specialists, foreign employees of foreign companies established in the host country, self-employed and employees of a foreign supplier.

It does not include; permanent migration, residence, citizenship or employment on a permanent basis, persons working in non-service industries or persons' seeking to enter the employment market.

So no benefit claimants or people coming here to stay!

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I really don't see that that would cause any significant issues as (from what I can tell from that and a couple of other documents I have read - not the easiest read) Mode 4 only includes; temporary movement, in practice highly skilled such as managers, executives and specialists, foreign employees of foreign companies established in the host country, self-employed and employees of a foreign supplier.

It does not include; permanent migration, residence, citizenship or employment on a permanent basis, persons working in non-service industries or persons' seeking to enter the employment market.

So no benefit claimants or people coming here to stay!

That means you can't come here looking for a job... but if you are coming here to DO a job, that's fine.
Employees of companies established in the host country? So that's quite a lot of employees in manufacturing, IT, engineering,
People working in the service industries are fine so that's unskilled workers covered housekeepers, waiting staff, bar and warehouse work.

Look at the original article I posted specifically this comment..

''Indian officials called for 40,000 workers to come to Europe under this scheme but EU negotiators said it should be half that. Twelve thousand of those could come to the UK.''

Without the EU negotiating how many will enter to take jobs, how can you suggest it won't have an impact?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That means you can't come here looking for a job... but if you are coming here to DO a job, that's fine.
Employees of companies established in the host country? So that's quite a lot of employees in manufacturing, IT, engineering,
People working in the service industries are fine so that's unskilled workers covered housekeepers, waiting staff, bar and warehouse work.

Look at the original article I posted specifically this comment..

''Indian officials called for 40,000 workers to come to Europe under this scheme but EU negotiators said it should be half that. Twelve thousand of those could come to the UK.''

Without the EU negotiating how many will enter to take jobs, how can you suggest it won't have an impact?

But according to remainers there will be a significant labour shortage after Brexit. Under WTO rules those filling those jobs will be here on an as needed basis and not with a plan of gaining permanent residency and all the benefits and entitlements that go along with that. We will have more control.

Under the open borders rules of a soft Brexit untold numbers will come here of which many will stay permanently and many will claim benefits and social housing etc. We will have no control. Many people voted to gain control of our borders - despite the leavers trying their best to ignore that crucial fact.

[the truth]

the government need to use more tradue union/civil service negotiator...this negotiation is beyond hardballl...demands for 100 billion divorce bills must be fought. There are many treasonous politicians like leanne wood who back the eu for this 100 billion against her own country. But we must fight it tooth and nail. We must itemise ever single penny weve invested for the past 40 odd years including the rebate. This was a legitimate democratic process and the corrupt unaccounted EU shouldnt be allowed to blackmail and bully us into near bankruptcy

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

But according to remainers there will be a significant labour shortage after Brexit. Under WTO rules those filling those jobs will be here on an as needed basis and not with a plan of gaining permanent residency and all the benefits and entitlements that go along with that. We will have more control.

Under the open borders rules of a soft Brexit untold numbers will come here of which many will stay permanently and many will claim benefits and social housing etc. We will have no control. Many people voted to gain control of our borders - despite the leavers trying their best to ignore that crucial fact.

And how does that help us?... How are we to gain secure permanent employment with a conveyor belt of cheap foreign labour, they will also have to have somewhere to live whilst here naturally are you advocating a rise in slum living, 10 to a room? :/

What use is social housing or any other housing if you have no job to pay for it? The whole issue surrounding the Eastern Europeans working in the UK was that they were taking jobs and undercutting wages not sitting on the dole.

What control do you have in all seriousness with mode 4? None, nothing is any different to how it was within the EU it's simply free movement in another guise.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And how does that help us?... How are we to gain secure permanent employment with a conveyor belt of cheap foreign labour, they will also have to have somewhere to live whilst here naturally are you advocating a rise in slum living, 10 to a room? :/

What use is social housing or any other housing if you have no job to pay for it? The whole issue surrounding the Eastern Europeans working in the UK was that they were taking jobs and undercutting wages not sitting on the dole.

What control do you have in all seriousness with mode 4? None, nothing is any different to how it was within the EU it's simply free movement in another guise.

We already have cheap foreign labour courtesy of free movement from the EU, but under WTO rules people won't have the right to settle here, only to work, giving us more control. Personally I don't believe Mode 4 will be a requirement but if it is there should be plenty of jobs for all when unlimited, uncontrolled migration from the EU stops.

It was after all the pro-EU open borders lot scaremongering about the effects stopping free movement from the EU would have on industry claiming business and industry would collapse without access to a regular supply of labour so hardly supports your theories that there won't be enough jobs.

[Brillopad]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...eversal-adonis

Thoughts!

[smudgie]

Could...that magic word again.
The opportunity to do this was given to EU when Mr.Cameron was in talks with them, they would not move on it.
We voted for Brexit, so Brexit it should be, if a mutual decent deal can't be done then so be it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Could...that magic word again.
The opportunity to do this was given to EU when Mr.Cameron was in talks with them, they would not move on it.
We voted for Brexit, so Brexit it should be, if a mutual decent deal can't be done then so be it.

Yes, pretty much agree with this.

[Oliver_W]

I think most Brexiteers voted exit because of migration, followed by integration/imposed laws. It would have saved a lot of fuss all round if the EU could just hand us back our borders...