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Parmy · 14-11-2018, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Connection to religion rather than god.
I'd say most homosexuals battle internal homophobia. Usually it's "gifted" to them by the hetoronormative world around them, sometimes reinforced by religion.
When coming out sometimes coming out to yourself is the hardest bit. Truly accepting who you are sexually and be ok with it.
So you can be gay and be a homophobe full of self-loathing.

I don't buy any of that.. You can't blame straight people for a gay persons self loathing..

Gay people seem to have separated themselves from society rather than society shunning them.gay bars, pride marches, flags n banners...

So more and more they isolate themselves, staying amongst their own...society having less and less of an impact on their day to day lives, yet still able to blame anyone but themselves for their unhappiness..

Christmas Dynasnow · 14-11-2018, 08:57 AM

"religion brings many people comfort"

always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

Urban Cragou · 14-11-2018, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"religion brings many people comfort"

always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

Do you get a kick out of being so insensitive?

Christmas Dynasnow · 14-11-2018, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redway

Do you get a kick out of being so insensitive?

reality has no feelings

Urban Cragou · 14-11-2018, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

reality has no feelings

Doesn’t kill to show a bit of tact when you’re talking about touchy things like death.

Or do you just prefer being as insensitive as possible to show us all what a hardcore rationalist you are?

Livia · 14-11-2018, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

"religion brings many people comfort"

always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

There are no atheists in a foxhole, LT.

You can't dismiss faith if you don't know what it is. It's like dissing the English language without being able to speak it.

Christmas Dynasnow · 14-11-2018, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

There are no atheists in a foxhole, LT.

You can't dismiss faith if you don't know what it is. It's like dissing the English language without being able to speak it.

faith is a nasty word for superstition and believing in stuff with no evidence

its not a word i am fond of

and yes there are, id imagine a lot of those who survived the 2 wars realised that there was no God and felt betrayed

Livia · 14-11-2018, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

faith is a nasty word for superstition and believing in stuff with no evidence

its not a word i am fond of

and yes there are, id imagine a lot of those who survived the 2 wars realised that there was no God and felt betrayed

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

Urban Cragou · 14-11-2018, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

Part of it’s him baiting. As per.

Yuki Maru Hoshi · 14-11-2018, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

Part 2 was on last night, it shocked me that it is actually people volountary going to the pastor to be "cured"

Makes you think that some people have a stronger connection to god than they do
with or for their sexuality.

That doesn't surprise me at all and I was going to post about something in that area.

I was going to post something to this effect. I'm not surprised at all. I think questions about the origins of sexuality, our minds, etc are all questions we all ask. Even outside of a sexuality POV.

Though I think it's a gray area for religion to provide "therapy" services. Even people with actual paperwork/licenses can do real harm. I know someone who a friend is seeing who is telling him things like he and this girl are on the same soul plane or some irrelevant nonsense. She used that to explain the intense attraction, when there were clearly other reasons for his obsessive behavior stemming from a very bad divorce. She is licensed.

I think most non-hetero folk innerly know when the switch is not movable. It's not going to be "cured" because it "just is". I don't think that God discourages questioning. If that person needs to have that "confrontation" with the Lord to get to the next stage of life, then I think let them. Some people feel a huge sense of support and comradery in their religious community... my thought, if we don't feel that way coming away from even simple service, then we're not in the place we need to be. The idea of a gay person going to conversion though out of self-loathing though is a recipe for disaster. So that's where I'm not sure I'm supportive or not of "gay conversion"... I can understand seeking support services while dealing with coming out for instance. That would be a real boon. However, conversion would only seem to attract folk who are coming from a damnation POV... and that does feel like it would send a Salem-esk vibe to the "flock".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

I'm in the same frame of mind, Livia.

I don't expect other people to understand. And yes, that means also tolerating other people's POVs. We don't have to agree on everything.

TwentyOneThrones · 14-11-2018, 05:05 PM

I mean if God could truly fix my Gayness, I'd be at those church doors as soon as possible.

Christmas Dynasnow · 14-11-2018, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwentyOneThrones

I mean if God could truly fix my Gayness, I'd be at those church doors as soon as possible.

Which "God"?

Urban Cragou · 14-11-2018, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Which "God"?

What drives a core rationalist like you to these threads in the first place?

Christmas Dynasnow · 15-11-2018, 10:51 AM

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

user104658 · 15-11-2018, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

The reasons are pretty obvious for that to be fair. The man is attracted to other men and not to women. His religion tells him that he's not allowed to be with a man, but he doesn't WANT to be with a woman... but there is an expectation to be a husband and father and people are going to ask questions. But not if you're a priest - priests aren't supposed to be interested in men OR women - so it was historically a natural "hiding place" for gay men who didn't want people asking why they weren't interested in women. Though of course, repression inevitably leads to "scandal" which is, I believe, a large part of the reason that Protestantism started allowing their "holy men" to have a wife / family, to make it a more "normal" path through life rather than a huge alternative lifestyle decision.

Parmy · 15-11-2018, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

i have been thinking about that the last few days and my thinking is that they joined the clergy to innitially supress those homosexual thoughts...

Christmas Dynasnow · 15-11-2018, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

i have been thinking about that the last few days and my thinking is that they joined the clergy to innitially supress those homosexual thoughts...

yes id imagine some did and some thought it a way to avoid persecution. As for the catholic ones , a lot thought it a great way to get access to boys and use the god bolloxio in their abuse

ChristmasNeeve · 15-11-2018, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes id imagine some did and some thought it a way to avoid persecution. As for the catholic ones , a lot thought it a great way to get access to boys and use the god bolloxio in their abuse

You're getting homosexuality and paedophilia mixed up there LT. That's pretty offensive. Little girls were also abused by these paedophile priests

Christmas Dynasnow · 15-11-2018, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You're getting homosexuality and paedophilia mixed up there LT. That's pretty offensive. Little girls were also abused by these paedophile priests

No i am not (although yes it reads like that) I mean a lot of paedos not a lot of gay people targetted catholic priest jobs

ChristmasNeeve · 15-11-2018, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but the idea from religious people I've talked to in any depth about this (all Christian, admittedly) is that they generally argue that homosexuality (or at least homosexual acts) are a choice borne of free will, and that as God knowingly gave people free will, it's not God's mistake if someone "chooses" to be actively homosexual - it is their own.

I would add though that none of these people were "hateful" towards gay people or didn't want gay people to find happiness, more of a philosophical acceptance that it "is a sin" but that that's between that person and God and it's not other people's place to judge (as everyone sins to some degree, etc etc).

I've also had a iscussion with one person who was pondering whether maybe people were actually born gay, God might actually have chosen to make them gay, as some sort of Book of Job style "test" i.e. chose for some people to be born with strong homosexual urges to test their ability to resist those urges, as it's only the act - not the desire - that's sinful.

Which is an interesting(?) perspective... I suppose...

That sounds unbelievably cruel, who would want to follow a god like that?

Also, what is the story with all this "testing of faith"? I never understood why it would be so important to god to want people to blindly believe he exist? Why?