[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have abundant time for anyone who is of course Ammi, my flippant comment above was to illustrate that far too many people are happy to just tweet or post something quick n snappy and will never bother to give any sort of reasoning (if they have it in the first place).

...I agree on social media/type sites, TS...because they’re more the sites that don’t strive for a discussion, but more a ‘battleground’...and of course, we all have to individually determine where we would apply an ‘abundant time’ to, in regards to listening and talking with etc...but for me, there are very individual and personal ways of how we do things/.. how we discuss etc...and ‘mocking’ in any form is not helpful at all, especially when a discussion of something so important is hoped for...

[ChristmasNeeve]

I think most people will have read that by JK Rowling Ammi, this is what they say is her being transphobic, she posted that after the people who menstruate tweet

[Oliver_W]

I'm yet to see why people take such offense to JKR - women are the only people who can menstrate #saytheirname

Moreover, I find the term TERF a bit ... pointless? Like, why would feminism include male people, it's meant to be about females expecting feminism to include males is like expecting a support group for eunuchs to help women, as they don't have balls.

[Elliot]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Moreover, I find the term TERF a bit ... pointless? Like, why would feminism include male people, it's meant to be about females

Because trans women are women....?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Because trans women are women....?

I can accept the premise that transwomen are a subset category of the larger group "women". I just have to be honest though and say that the idea that there is no distinction between biologically-female women and transwomen is illogical, unscientific and (to be a little more harsh) wishful thinking. I think feminism can certainly encompass transwomen, but that has to be in a form that acknowledges and addresses that there are differences, and the needs and concerns of all women. Sometimes it feels like the available options are "pretend that there isn't a difference and there's no valid issue in terms of acknowledging different wants and needs", or "Be a TERF!".

I'm trying really hard to come up with a good way to describe what my issue is with that, but eehat I keep coming back to is that it's just immature. An immature, black and white, emotion-driven mindset that I can have sympathy for but don't think has any place in a constructive conversation.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Because trans women are women....?

Transwomen are transwomen, and are male.

How many sex-based issues faced by women also apply to transwomen? Not single wex spaces, because transwomen using female spaces goes against it being a single sex space; not abortion rights, because transwomen can't get pregnant; not to be harsh but in most cases transwomen probably don't need to worry about sexual harrassment; issues relating to what is sometimes labelled as the "wage gap" might apply - I can see bigoted employers passing them up for promotions or pay risew, bjt not for the same reasons as females.

Issues faced by transwomen are important issues, but they're not femimist issues.

[ChristmasNeeve]

And after she wrote that essay her abusive ex was in the paper saying "he's not sorry for hitting JK Rowling" He was so emboldened by her "cancellation" suddenly domestic abuse is a-ok....

[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

And after she wrote that essay her abusive ex was in the paper saying "he's not sorry for hitting JK Rowling" He was so emboldened by her "cancellation" suddenly domestic abuse is a-ok....

And that story was rightly universally condemned, even by those horrible trans people and activists people say are mean to her

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And that story was rightly universally condemned, even by those horrible trans people and activists people says are mean to her

Horrible trans people? I hope you're not trying to put words in my mouth there Liam.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Liam-

And that story was rightly universally condemned, even by those horrible trans people and activists people say are mean to her

Not all of them. Not that I'm making a huge point of that; it obviously was most. But there were a significant-enough-to-be-noticeable number of people at least CLAIMING to be fighting for trans rights who were making comments along the lines of, "I wish I could punch JK Rowling too" etc.

Obviously aware that this is an extreme minority but I don't think it's helpful to pretend that those extreme minorities don't exist, or to put up blinkers to their comments and pretend they didn't happen.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

There is a lot of "i am going to criticise a major celeb and make myself feel important..and because there are lots doing it i feel safe from backlash"

"also she is old and white so i see her as fair game in the current climate"

[Elliot]

Like I don’t understand how anyone expects trans people to compromise or have nuanced discussion about any of these issues when a majority of people aren’t even willing to validate their gender identity and lived experience... (ie. jk Rowling claiming in her essay that trans people don’t experience oppression based on their identity, or people on this forum claiming hormones and puberty blockers are really easy to get a hold of)

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Like I don’t understand how anyone expects trans people to compromise or have nuanced discussion about any of these issues when a majority of people aren’t even willing to validate their gender identity and lived experience... (ie. jk Rowling claiming in her essay that trans people don’t experience oppression based on their identity, or people on this forum claiming hormones and puberty blockers are really easy to get a hold of)

She didn't say they don't face oppression. She said the exact opposite.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Like I don’t understand how anyone expects trans people to compromise or have nuanced discussion about any of these issues when a majority of people aren’t even willing to validate their gender identity and lived experience... (ie. jk Rowling claiming in her essay that trans people don’t experience oppression based on their identity, or people on this forum claiming hormones and puberty blockers are really easy to get a hold of)

I really don't think JK Rowling has ever said that trans people have never been discriminated against because of their gender identity, what she's saying is that women and girls are discriminated against because of their biological sex rather than a gender identity and there is a difference and perhaps a big part of the clash of rights.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Elliot

Like I don’t understand how anyone expects trans people to compromise or have nuanced discussion about any of these issues when a majority of people aren’t even willing to validate their gender identity and lived experience... (ie. jk Rowling claiming in her essay that trans people don’t experience oppression based on their identity, or people on this forum claiming hormones and puberty blockers are really easy to get a hold of)

When did Rowling say trans people don't face oppression? And who has said that sex hormones and puberty blockers are easy to get hold of? They are still currently hard to get hold of because they SHOULD be hard to get hold of, people's issue is with pressure groups trying to make them EASIER to get hold of, by lying about them not having potentially harmful side effects, and that the effects are fully reversible, when they are not.

[Marsh.]

A big portion of her essay literally goes into detail about how she has been a big supporter of the LGBT community due to the shared vulnerability in facing violence from men. To now try to twist that into her saying the opposite is, again, ignoring the facts.

[Liam-]

People who agree with JK demand to be listened to and respected for their opinions, in the same breath as saying anyone who disagrees is either sexist, too emotional, doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or is a man so has no right, if a conversation is actually genuinely wanted, then it needs to go both ways, ‘we have to discuss it no matter how offensive it might be’ ‘umm, I think you’re offensive so I’m going to dismiss everything you say’

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Liam-

People who agree with JK demand to be listened to and respected for their opinions, in the same breath as saying anyone who disagrees is either sexist, too emotional, doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or is a man so has no right, if a conversation is actually genuinely wanted, then it needs to go both ways, ‘we have to discuss it no matter how offensive it might be’ ‘umm, I think you’re offensive so I’m going to dismiss everything you say’

Which part/s of what she said do you disagree with?

[Marsh.]

I didn't say anyone who disagrees is sexist. I'm commenting on the radical so-called activists who do nothing but throw misogynistic slurs at her and other women with valid concerns. In those cases it seems disagreement = transphobia but misogyny = fine.

[Withano]

Fair enough. If someone sells something that will directly profit a racist, transphobe or homophobe, maybe they should consider not doing that. Each book shop owner to their own.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Withano

Fair enough. If someone sells something that will directly profit a racist, transphobe or homophobe, maybe they should consider not doing that. Each book shop owner to their own.

Thankfully there's no evidence that JKR is any of those

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Withano

Fair enough. If someone sells something that will directly profit a racist, transphobe or homophobe, maybe they should consider not doing that. Each book shop owner to their own.

If we're going by such loose definitions of those words as the one used to deem Rowling a transphobe, they'd have to remove 3/4 of the books from the shelves.

On the plus side, they'd have an exciting rebranding opportunity! They could rename the shop "The Echo Chambre". Sadly, it would probably be quite popular with some demographics.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If we're going by such loose definitions of those words as the one used to deem Rowling a transphobe, they'd have to remove 3/4 of the books from the shelves..

If they want. Each book shop owner to their own.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Withano

If they want. Each book shop owner to their own.

That's fair but let's not pretend that you weren't indicating it as a "good idea".

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's fair but let's not pretend that you weren't indicating it as a "good idea".

Oh right. So you just assumed my post had a different context to the way it was literally written. Jumped on your high horse and got a bit mad.

Good chat.