[Niall]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I dont think its fair to say everyone 'convicted' of anything. Some paedophiles get convicted on only the words of the victims.

Thats why I said earlier on only if it can be actually proven beyond all reasonable doubt...and that it would be very much on a case by case basis.

Yes but having such a authoritarian and dictatorial punishment in todays society is backwards and quite barbaric.

And even though such sentences aren't given out that much nowadays, life imprisonment can be far more punishing.

[Marsh.]

I've got to say, after lostalex kicking up a fuss about parents "beating up" their children and then to come out with that, I think he just says whatever is most likely to get a reaction.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niall

Yes but having such a authoritarian and dictatorial punishment in todays society is backwards and quite barbaric.

And even though such sentences aren't given out that much nowadays, life imprisonment can be far more punishing.

I agree with this totally. Unfortunately our 'justice' system is absolutely ridiculous and allows people such as the chinese woman who beat her baby to do a years worth of time...and then says her debt to society is paid...and she can go back to her normal life, have more kids to abuse...maybe get another year somewhere down the line...its just not right at all.

I would be all for life meaning life. And all serious crimes against kids getting life. But its just never going to happen. I know the sterilisation thing will never happen either though. But something really has got to be done about stuff like this. I mean, the guy who made a racist tweet...is likely to be in prison for longer than that woman is. How the **** is that fair?!

I honestly think that our justice system being too damn soft and inconsistent is the main reason so many offend in the first place. You can murder someone and be out in 5 years or so.

[Ninastar]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I agree with this totally. Unfortunately our 'justice' system is absolutely ridiculous and allows people such as the chinese woman who beat her baby to do a years worth of time...and then says her debt to society is paid...and she can go back to her normal life, have more kids to abuse...maybe get another year somewhere down the line...its just not right at all.

I would be all for life meaning life. And all serious crimes against kids getting life. But its just never going to happen. I know the sterilisation thing will never happen either though. But something really has got to be done about stuff like this. I mean, the guy who made a racist tweet...is likely to be in prison for longer than that woman is. How the **** is that fair?!

I honestly think that our justice system being too damn soft and inconsistent is the main reason so many offend in the first place. You can murder someone and be out in 5 years or so.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I agree with this totally. Unfortunately our 'justice' system is absolutely ridiculous and allows people such as the chinese woman who beat her baby to do a years worth of time...and then says her debt to society is paid...and she can go back to her normal life, have more kids to abuse...maybe get another year somewhere down the line...its just not right at all.

I would be all for life meaning life. And all serious crimes against kids getting life. But its just never going to happen. I know the sterilisation thing will never happen either though. But something really has got to be done about stuff like this. I mean, the guy who made a racist tweet...is likely to be in prison for longer than that woman is. How the **** is that fair?!

I honestly think that our justice system being too damn soft and inconsistent is the main reason so many offend in the first place. You can murder someone and be out in 5 years or so.

Yeah it is quite disgusting how lenient it's become. I mean if we could imprison people for life, and life meaning life in prison (not 25 years or some sh!t), then that would be ideal. There just isn't the space for it I suppose..

About the racist tweet thing: I think that was way over the top too. It could have been to set an example to others though not to be offensive like that online? I don't know really. It was ridiculous though. That was the one who was really offensive about the footballer, right?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niall

Yeah it is quite disgusting how lenient it's become. I mean if we could imprison people for life, and life meaning life in prison (not 25 years or some sh!t), then that would be ideal. There just isn't the space for it I suppose..

But if we did imprison people for life...Im pretty sure there wouldnt be so many offenders in the first place. So the overcrowding would solve itself really...as less people would be committing serious crimes.

But yeah, there isnt the space to even try it...because of how **** the system has been so far

Originally Posted by Niall

About the racist tweet thing: I think that was way over the top too. It could have been to set an example to others though not to be offensive like that online? I don't know really. It was ridiculous though. That was the one who was really offensive about the footballer, right?

I didnt read the tweets myself, but yeah. It might have been to set an example...but even so. Someone purposely torturing a child, should get way harsher punishment than some idiot keyboard warrior thinking he was clever :S I dont personally think his sentence was too harsh really...but there should be some consistency. And I think in anyones eyes what this woman did is way worse than what that man did. And this should be reflected in the punishment.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But if we did imprison people for life...Im pretty sure there wouldnt be so many offenders in the first place. So the overcrowding would solve itself really...as less people would be committing serious crimes.

But yeah, there isnt the space to even try it...because of how **** the system has been so far

I never thought of it that way before. I suppose that makes sense. But like you said, the prisons are already fit to burst so we can't try it now.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I didnt read the tweets myself, but yeah. It might have been to set an example...but even so. Someone purposely torturing a child, should get way harsher punishment than some idiot keyboard warrior thinking he was clever :S

Hmm I think its quite worrying really. Jailing someone for being verbally offensive? He was exercising his right to free speech I think. I would've just fined him.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But if we did imprison people for life...Im pretty sure there wouldnt be so many offenders in the first place. So the overcrowding would solve itself really...as less people would be committing serious crimes.

But yeah, there isnt the space to even try it...because of how **** the system has been so far

Is there really gonna be that significant a difference between the effectiveness of the deterrent for a prison sentence that lasts 25 years and one that lasts 50 (assuming after the time they're probably pretty close to death)? And if the death penalty is ineffective as a deterrent why would other tougher punishments be any more of one?

I think if someone is in the frame of mind to kill another person, than whether the punishment is 25 years, 50 years, or death, it won't have that big an impact on their decision

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Is there really gonna be that significant a difference between the effectiveness of the deterrent for a prison sentence that lasts 25 years and one that lasts 50 (assuming after the time they're probably pretty close to death)? And if the death penalty is ineffective as a deterrent why would other tougher punishments be any more of one?

Well a 25 year sentence would generally result in someone being out in like 12. Say you killed someone at 20 year old, you would be out just in time to enjoy the prime of your life. Even doing the full sentence you would be out by 45....likely under a new identity and everything too (as only really high profile cases get sentences like that). Life meaning life would mean you never saw the real world again...I would imagine thats a pretty big deterrant...for younger people at least.

I would personally say that spending my life locked up is worse than the death penalty.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

I've got to say, after lostalex kicking up a fuss about parents "beating up" their children and then to come out with that, I think he just says whatever is most likely to get a reaction.

Again I agree with you.

[Vicky.]

Oh and I dont think that everyone who murders is gone in the head. I think a lot of them seriously plan what they are going to do, how to get away with it and everything. Then just try to plead insanity at court because a lot of people seem to think only insane people would even consider murdering someone.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Oh and I dont think that everyone who murders is gone in the head. I think a lot of them seriously plan what they are going to do, how to get away with it and everything. Then just try to plead insanity at court because a lot of people seem to think only insane people would even consider murdering someone.

Maybe it's just me but I think that someone that plans a murder has something seriously wrong with them, they're definitely not right in the head.

No sane person does that.

EDIT: Bit like that teenager a few weeks back that killed his mum with a hammer, and had plotted it for months and months in the form of little stories. There's clearly some kind of issue there if you ask me, even more so than those who just murder at the heat of the moment.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well a 25 year sentence would generally result in someone being out in like 12. Say you killed someone at 20 year old, you would be out just in time to enjoy the prime of your life. Even doing the full sentence you would be out by 45....likely under a new identity and everything too (as only really high profile cases get sentences like that). Life meaning life would mean you never saw the real world again...I would imagine thats a pretty big deterrant...for younger people at least.

I would personally say that spending my life locked up is worse than the death penalty.

Even in cases when they only get out after 12 years or so (and I'm not sure how frequent it actually is that prisoners only serve half their sentence), I wouldn't say they're in a position to "enjoy the prime of their life". It's forever known that they were a murderer, that will place huge limitations on everything they do and they have to try and accustom themselves back to the real world and (if they do feel this way) always have to live with what they've done. I'm not saying this to try and make you feel sorry for them, or make out they deserve any sympathy because they don't and those are the consequences of what they've done, but I just don't think it's the case that murderers get a really easy ride in life after being released

And I'm not sure I agree that being killed is better than spending your life in prison, but either way I still thinks it's the case that however much you try and toughen the punishment it probably won't stop someone killing another man if they were already going to do it. I don't think it's a coincidence that the countries with the most brutal justice system often have the most crime, and those with the most liberal have the least

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Maybe it's just me but I think that someone that plans a murder has something seriously wrong with them, they're definitely not right in the head.

No sane person does that.
EDIT: Bit like that teenager a few weeks back that killed his mum with a hammer, and had plotted it for months and months in the form of little stories. There's clearly some kind of issue there if you ask me, even more so than those who just murder at the heat of the moment.

Yes I agree..the horrific case that's been on the news all day today of Shane Jenkins who gouged his ex's eyes out..apparantly he'd watched a dvd of eye gouging fgs...there was no 'spur of the moment' thing going on there..that man is seriously disturbed...
..he's been sentenced to life imprisonment..but I don't know how these things work..will they just leave him disturbed or will he ever get any help to fully realise what he's done..because I'm presuming someone who is capable of doing that can't possibly fully grasp it

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Even in cases when they only get out after 12 years or so (and I'm not sure how frequent it actually is that prisoners only serve half their sentence), I wouldn't say they're in a position to "enjoy the prime of their life". It's forever known that they were a murderer, that will place huge limitations on everything they do and they have to try and accustom themselves back to the real world and (if they do feel this way) always have to live with what they've done. I'm not saying this to try and make you feel sorry for them, or make out they deserve any sympathy because they don't and those are the consequences of what they've done, but I just don't think it's the case that murderers get a really easy ride in life after being released

And I'm not sure I agree that being killed is better than spending your life in prison, but either way I still thinks it's the case that however much you try and toughen the punishment it probably won't stop someone killing another man if they were already going to do it. I don't think it's a coincidence that the countries with the most brutal justice system often have the most crime, and those with the most liberal have the least

Wrong because what about over here?

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Ammi

Yes I agree..the horrific case that's been on the news all day today of Shane Jenkins who gouged his ex's eyes out..apparantly he'd watched a dvd of eye gouging fgs...there was no 'spur of the moment' thing going on there..that man is seriously disturbed...
..he's been sentenced to life imprisonment..but I don't know how these things work..will they just leave him disturbed or will he ever get any help to fully realise what he's done..because I'm presuming someone who is capable of doing that can't possibly fully grasp it

They do but they just don't care.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Mockinator

Wrong because what about over here?

I don't think our justice system is particularly liberal, no more so than most Western countries. I think Norway is a very good example of a successful liberal justice system, their reaction to the atrocities committed there last year have been a testament to this

[Ammi]

As much as I am as shocked as anyone about certain crimes I would worry about these type of punishments....
..if it was that say someone committed a murder and they got the death penalty..a life for a life..or a paedophile say castrated..someone who was deemed to be disturbed..maybe lobotomised..and the forced castration on anyone that it is deemed shouldn't have anymore children.....
...that sounds like a completely violent and barbaric world to live in..like something out of a horror movie..almost completely lawless..and would there ever be any extenuating circumstances and how would they be decided..it seems to be playing around with people's lives as much as the people who commit these crimes in the first place....
..it would be better if the sentences were longer in some cases or that they served their full term..but when they're doing that..these people need help also

[Kizzy]

Im standing by what I suggested, it is being trialled for peadophiles ...Voluntary chemical castration. It would be discrimination if the same soloution was not offered to women?...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...tish-jail.html

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Scott

well the murder case would probably upset me more

abuse victims can get over what happened to them dead people cant

i just think to take somebodies life away from them is in a different league to everything else and there is nothing worse

You think it's that easy do you Scott? They just get over it?

what about young children who recall the memories, the pain, the hurt, the fear: and have to live with that every single day for the rest of the lives - many who have been phsyically damaged to the point that they cannot have children anymore: or are unable to have a normal sex life.

If only child abuse was as simple to get over as you appear to think it is.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Niall

Yes but having such a authoritarian and dictatorial punishment in todays society is backwards and quite barbaric.

And even though such sentences aren't given out that much nowadays, life imprisonment can be far more punishing.

How many people in the UK these days are imprisoned for the rest of their natural life........ life imprisonment isn't life.

[Pyramid*]

I wish they'd done a poll on this : but split it into males /females: reading through the thread: it appears that it is mostly males who are against sterilization - with mostly the females being 'for it'.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by vicky.

i agree with this totally. Unfortunately our 'justice' system is absolutely ridiculous and allows people such as the chinese woman who beat her baby to do a years worth of time...and then says her debt to society is paid...and she can go back to her normal life, have more kids to abuse...maybe get another year somewhere down the line...its just not right at all.

I would be all for life meaning life. And all serious crimes against kids getting life. But its just never going to happen. I know the sterilisation thing will never happen either though. But something really has got to be done about stuff like this. I mean, the guy who made a racist tweet...is likely to be in prison for longer than that woman is. How the **** is that fair?!

I honestly think that our justice system being too damn soft and inconsistent is the main reason so many offend in the first place. You can murder someone and be out in 5 years or so.

this 100%

[Marc]

Why has Vicky's post been used to start a thread.

Could've kept this in the originaly thread or just PMed each other to debate it

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by Marc

Why has Vicky's post been used to start a thread.

Could've kept this in the originaly thread or just PMed each other to debate it

Given that at 124 comments, before mine here have now been posted, it's a bit late in the day for your question & suggestion.

I don't see the issue to be honest - people are still discussing it.