[the truth]

Originally Posted by Z

One thing men are not, are mothers who have to carry a pregnancy to term. I'm passing no comment or judgment on the timeline of abortion, I'm merely speaking about women having the right to decide on whether or not the actual concept is something that should be allowed or not.

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

[Z]

Originally Posted by the truth

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

Okay, and what if a woman's been raped and falls pregnant? Under your warped logic does she have to keep that baby and raise it and be reminded of what happened to her every single day for the rest of her life?

Originally Posted by the truth

has it ever occured to you sometimes the woman wants the baby and doesnt want to abort but the man and family members is presuring the woman to abort? shouldnt the woman and the parents in general get far more options and time given to them than pressure to abort?

Yes, it was one of the things I thought of when I made my posts in this thread. That's why I believe it should only be up to the woman to make the decision whether she wants to keep the baby or not, it should always be a woman's decision. I feel like you're disagreeing with a point I haven't made here.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

the concept is a cop out. yes women carry a baby. if theyre scared of carrying a bay take precautions to start with. women and fathers are pressurised by people to make rash decisions without having the time , expert advise specialists taking time to relay to them all their options with regards adoption, foster, surrogacy etc they also need to understand in palriament, 24 week old babies being killed is legalised murder of innocent voiceless babies

Who is to say they didn't? Condoms have something like a 2% fail rate...so 2 in every 100 people who use them could still get pregnant. Even if the woman is on the pill aswell theres a chance (albeit a small one) of falling pregnant still

I'm not pretending that everyone who has an abortion has took precautions against getting pregnant though..

The only certain way of not getting pregnant is to never have sex. And thats a bit unrealistic, to say from now on, only people who want a baby should ever have sex :S

[Kizzy]

It is but the effects of abortion shouldn't be forgotten, they are just as damaging.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It is but the effects of abortion shouldn't be forgotten, they are just as damaging.

Yes. I know a girl who's had two abortions - the first time, she was devastated at what she had done and traumatised by the physical pain of it and everyone really felt for her. Then she got pregnant again and went through it a second time and no one felt sorry for her. I sort of feel like if you're just going to be irresponsible, you shouldn't be allowed to have this get out of jail free card of having an abortion whenever you accidentally get knocked up, but there's no way you could ever put some kind of "limit" on how many abortions a person can have because there are so many reasons why a woman might get one... unwanted pregnancy from casual sex, unwanted pregnancy from being raped, something wrong with the foetus... I don't know. It's just too difficult to say firmly either way what's right or wrong.

In the case of the girl I know, if she's irresponsible enough to have gotten pregnant and not wanted it twice (and even then, saying "irresponsible" is quite a loaded term and sounds like only the female is to blame - it takes two to tango... or more than two if you're into that kind of thing) then would she be fit to be a mother? Probably not... but people rise to the occasion. As a man, I don't feel it's my place to have strong views on abortion, it's an experience I will never physically go through and therefore I don't think it's really my business.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Z

Yes. I know a girl who's had two abortions - the first time, she was devastated at what she had done and traumatised by the physical pain of it and everyone really felt for her. Then she got pregnant again and went through it a second time and no one felt sorry for her. I sort of feel like if you're just going to be irresponsible, you shouldn't be allowed to have this get out of jail free card of having an abortion whenever you accidentally get knocked up, but there's no way you could ever put some kind of "limit" on how many abortions a person can have because there are so many reasons why a woman might get one... unwanted pregnancy from casual sex, unwanted pregnancy from being raped, something wrong with the foetus... I don't know. It's just too difficult to say firmly either way what's right or wrong.

In the case of the girl I know, if she's irresponsible enough to have gotten pregnant and not wanted it twice (and even then, saying "irresponsible" is quite a loaded term and sounds like only the female is to blame - it takes two to tango... or more than two if you're into that kind of thing) then would she be fit to be a mother? Probably not... but people rise to the occasion. As a man, I don't feel it's my place to have strong views on abortion, it's an experience I will never physically go through and therefore I don't think it's really my business.

Be careful your straying into Richard Dawkins territory...
I didn't say or infer anyone was irresponsible sorry if it sounded like I did, I appreciate there are many contributory factors to the decision to terminate a pregnancy. I only wanted to highlight that it's something that changes you forever I've known 3 women who have aborted a pregnancy and none are the same for it.
You may not physically experience it, I haven't yet we can still have an opinion and be empathic can't we?

[Z]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Be careful your straying into Richard Dawkins territory...
I didn't say or infer anyone was irresponsible sorry if it sounded like I did, I appreciate there are many contributory factors to the decision to terminate a pregnancy. I only wanted to highlight that it's something that changes you forever I've known 3 women who have aborted a pregnancy and none are the same for it.
You may not physically experience it, I haven't yet we can still have an opinion and be empathic can't we?

It's a fact though isn't it, some women will choose to terminate a pregnancy if they're informed that there are health concerns with the foetus or with the woman herself, I don't think I'm straying into Richard Dawkins territory, it's just a simple fact. No I don't think you were inferring that at all, I was just rambling really and yeah of course we can be empathetic but I don't feel that as a man, I have any real right to tell you as a woman what you can and can't do with your body, abortion links into all sorts of other issues in that sense. I can have an opinion on it, of course, but I feel that it's an issue for women to decide upon and men to respect the outcome.

[Vicky.]

I do agree men should get a say, however I do not see how this would be feasible in reality. The man could say he wanted the child, the woman be forced to carry it, the woman dies during childbirth...what then? What if the guy decided late on that infact he didnt want the child?

I don't think its right for men to not get a say but I also don't think it is right to force someone to go through something that could effectively kill them or cause serious medical problems..

[Z]

It's an emotional issue as much as it is a physical one. The way I see it, the man has signed over his rights to the woman the moment she falls pregnant (to be crude, he did sort of... give it away, directly to the woman...) and the decision is ultimately hers about whether or not she aborts a pregnancy. I'd hope that in most cases, it would be a mutual decision where applicable, but it should always be the woman's choice whether she goes through with it or not, even if it goes against the man's wishes, because she's the one who has to go through with it.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Z

It's an emotional issue as much as it is a physical one. The way I see it, the man has signed over his rights to the woman the moment she falls pregnant (to be crude, he did sort of... give it away, directly to the woman...) and the decision is ultimately hers about whether or not she aborts a pregnancy. I'd hope that in most cases, it would be a mutual decision where applicable, but it should always be the woman's choice whether she goes through with it or not, even if it goes against the man's wishes, because she's the one who has to go through with it.

has it ever occured to you sometimes the woman wants the baby and doesnt want to abort but the man and family members is presuring the woman to abort? shouldnt the woman and the parents in general get far more options and time given to them than pressure to abort?

[AnnieK]

No contraception is 100% effective or guaranteed...medications and illness effect the pill, implants and other hormone driven devices can become ineffective, condoms split and fail, sterilisations and vasectomies have been known to fail......you could take every precaution and STILL fall pregnant....it happens and probably more often than you think. I was told I couldn't have children....went through failed fertility treatments and started the adoption process but then fell pregnant naturally. Sometimes thingshappen which are well out of reasonable control

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

youre exaggerrating my point in a frankly embarrassing fashion. there is such a thing as the pill and umpteen other ways to prevent preganncies happening in the first place, as you well know

The amount of people who fall pregnant whilst on 2 or more forms of contraception is probably higher than those who just chose to have an abortion at 24 weeks (ignoring medical complications). So me mentioning this is no more ridiculous than you keep bleating on about 24 weeks.

Anyway, I already mentioned 2 forms of contraception. Yes there are more but its slightly OTT to be expecting people to be using EVERY form of contraception. And tbh I dont think doctors would even let you be on the pill, implant, injection etc at the same time

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The amount of people who fall pregnant whilst on 2 or more forms of contraception is probably higher than those who just chose to have an abortion at 24 weeks (ignoring medical complications). So me mentioning this is no more ridiculous than you keep bleating on about 24 weeks.

bleating on about 24 weeks? were talking about millions of babies worldwide murdered up to 24 weeks and you dare to trivialise it, how profoundly offensive how callous how cold hearted how evil.........24 week babies being killed is murder....

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

bleating on about 24 weeks? were talking about millions of babies worldwide murdered up to 24 weeks and you dare to trivialise it, how profoundly offensive how callous how cold hearted how evil.........24 week babies being killed is murder....

I imagine its something like 0.001% of abortions or something that are just chosen (eg. not for medical reasons) that are carried out at 24 weeks, unless you have some actual statistics to say otherwise. I agree that its totally wrong to do it that late, I have never said otherwise...infact I mentioned earlier in the thread lowering the limit to around 10 weeks except for medical reasons?

Yes bleating on, I completely get the pro-life arguments, believe me. However you just keep repeating 'murdered babies' and '24 weeks' over and over..which kinda nulls any real point you have to make

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I imagine its something like 0.001% of abortions or something that are just chosen (eg. not for medical reasons) that are carried out at 24 weeks, unless you have some actual statistics to say otherwise. I agree that its totally wrong to do it that late, I have never said otherwise...infact I mentioned earlier in the thread lowering the limit to around 10 weeks except for medical reasons?

Yes bleating on, I completely get the pro-life arguments, believe me. However you just keep repeating 'murdered babies' and '24 weeks' over and over..which kinda nulls any real point you have to make

if youre that easily put off the pro life agenda just because of a few trivial semantics it shows how shallow your opinion on this massive issue is.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

if youre that easily put off the pro life agenda just because of a few trivial semantics it shows how shallow your opinion on this massive issue is.

Again, I never even said that...

[mizzy25]

Its not right or wrong, it all depends on the woman the circumstances etc.

[Vicky.]

Most abortions (around 90%) are carried out before a pregnancy reaches 13 weeks, and virtually all abortions (around 98%) are performed before 20 weeks.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortio...t-be-done.aspx

I would bet my house on the 2% that are done after the 20 week mark being because of medical reasons... also that the massive majority of the 10% done after 13 weeks are for medical reasons too..given that thats around when you get the anomaly tests done..

[Northern Monkey]

I would only allow it for genuine medical reasons or rape victims.In the case of medical reasons the father also needs to be consulted,You can't just go killing a mans child without his consent.Abortion should NOT be used as contraception,That is disgusting.Don't get pregnant if you can't take responsibilty for your child.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

I would only allow it for genuine medical reasons or rape victims.In the case of medical reasons the father also needs to be consulted,You can't just go killing a mans child without his consent.Abortion should NOT be used as contraception,That is disgusting.Don't get pregnant if you can't take responsibilty for your child.

Really? Eventhough it's the mother who's in medical danger not the father

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Really? Eventhough it's the mother who's in medical danger not the father

Sorry,i meant if a disability is detected at a scan.Obviously if the woman is in any danger then she should have the full authority to choose.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Sorry,i meant if a disability is detected at a scan.Obviously if the woman is in any danger then she should have the full authority to choose.

ah ok

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

ah ok

I would have probably had a more pro choice view a few years back but since becoming a dad i feel differently.Kids are'nt toys,They are people,Their life should be respected imo.

[AnnieK]

When I was 18 two of my closest friends got pregnant and spoke to my mum about it. For different reasons they both couldn't speak to their own mums. One of them kept the baby, the other didn't. My mum was quite affected by talking to my friend who decided to terminate and said she definitely made the harder decision.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

When I was 18 two of my closest friends got pregnant and spoke to my mum about it. For different reasons they both couldn't speak to their own mums. One of them kept the baby, the other didn't. My mum was quite affected by talking to my friend who decided to terminate and said she definitely made the harder decision.

what does harder mean here?