[iRyan]

Originally Posted by Stu

BUT ... BLACK PEOPLE!

Homosexuals don't have to engage in homosexual acts though. Black people sort of do have to engage with the act of being black.

I'm not saying they should abstain ... I enjoy a bit of cock sucking myself ... but fuck a duck. The race comparisons have well and truly jumped the shark. Can we make them a bannable offense?

How can you expect them not to? It'd be the same as telling a straight person they shouldn't engage in any sexual acts and they shouldn't be allowed to love someone else. (By the way, not speaking to you directly, but in general).

I don't understand people that say they accept gay people but not their "acts".

[King Gizzard]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't understand why civil partnerships, which are already legal and give gay people the same rights as a married couple, can't just be called a marriage. It's exactly the same as being married in a register office. If a couple love each other and want to marry, I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

However... I don't agree with forcing the church to marry gay couples which seems to be uppermost in people's demands. If you're going to force the Christian church to marry gay couples against their belief, you're going to have to force the Catholics, the Jews, the Hindus, the Muslims and every other organised religion to do the same. It seems that people accept that, for instance, the Muslim religion would not allow it, but see no problem with forcing the Christian church to do it. If a gay couple are religious, want to marry in a register office and have a church blessing, then would that not be enough? Many divorced heterosexual couples do this.

Exactly my view point, every word of it

Christianity seems to be a bit of an easy target at times.

and having a wedding at a church who oppose it in the first place - why would you want that? You would constantly be thinking of it..

[Liberty4eva]

I voted no as a protest against frivolous issues like gay marriage. I long for a world where this is the most important issue but there are so many more important things. I could think of 20 issues in the world that are more important than this off the top of my head.

If you still have the freedom to have a relationship with the person you love, how is your happiness being impaired by society? It's as if gay people think they have a right to be thought of as normal. You don't have the right to be thought of as normal. No one does. And by the way, you are not normal. If your type of relationship was normal, we'd die as a species.

I wish that we'd just outlaw marriage and go back to when marriage was just a product of religion and not of government.

[MTVN]

I don't think people really want to force the C of E to carry out gay marriage, Cameron specifically said no religious organisation would be. The only people who really seem to be making a fuss about that are the Church themselves because they think they own the legal definition to marriage and because they are considered to carry out marriages on behalf of the State, and fear this would threaten that. If we fully separated Church and State I don't think it'd be a problem

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Nathan

and having a wedding at a church who oppose it in the first place - why would you want that? You would constantly be thinking of it..

Well believe it or not, some gay people are actually Christian.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Niall

Well believe it or not, some gay people are actually Christian.

Why would you want to be part of a religion that think that being gay is a sin though? I'm not saying that to be nasty btw, I'm saying it because I don't agree with a whole lot of what they believe and I want nothing to do with Catholicism because of it, I don't want to change their views, I just don't want to be part of it. I mean, they don't let divorced people re marry in the church either.

[fruit_cake]

If gay people want to get married let them get married, it's a no brainer imo..plus if god doesn't like it, I'm sure he'll deal with it in the afterlife anyway.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by kizzy

What doesen't matter to most people?
It matters to the the people within those groups....
Are you mocking mockinator....Or are you serious?

Im just saying that giving out names to people is only to describe a person, like saying his black skined with brown hair as an example.

You have to describe what someone looks like otherwise how would you explain to someone if they wanted to meet someone what they looked like or what they are like as people?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niall

Well believe it or not, some gay people are actually Christian.

If they really are Christian then they will accept the doctrine and understand that they cannot marry in church.

I've been to a wedding in the last couple of years where both of the (heterosexual) people being married were divorced and the church would not marry them. They had a register office wedding and were then blessed in the church. They didn't kick up a fuss and want the rules changed, because they are Christians and they accepted it.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Why would you want to be part of a religion that think that being gay is a sin though? I'm not saying that to be nasty btw, I'm saying it because I don't agree with a whole lot of what they believe and I want nothing to do with Catholicism because of it, I don't want to change their views, I just don't want to be part of it. I mean, they don't let divorced people re marry in the church either.

Okay this might be long and slightly convoluted, but I'm going to try my best to explain myself.

Firstly, the Christian God is the God that I believe in. Its a belief thats deeply entrenched in me. I don't consider myself Catholic really even though I was raised as one because of their attitude to not only homosexuality, but a whole host of other issues (which I won't get into because if I did I'll be here all week ). But I do consider myself a Christian. I don't think at an omni-benevolent entity would create a group of people for the express purpose of their discrimination. Its just not logical.

I mean if you take the passage of the Bible which labels homosexuality a sin, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as that was written over 2000 years ago. Its simply not relavent to todays society. Back then maybe, what with the high amounts of disease killing people (reproduction was a necessity, and homosexuality infringed upon that I guess). But now thats no longer the case. The same part of the Bible from where that passage is lifted, also contains a verse which says that wearing wool and cotton blended clothing is also an abomination. It also says its okay to sell your daughter into slavery, stone her if she's adulterous (I think). The list goes on. I just think its absurd to actively defend the passage pertaining to homosexuality, when the other things I mentioned are also written in the same part of the book.

So I do consider my self a Christian, but with a slightly reformed (I think thats the right word?) view on the Bible and the religion in general. I don't take the Bible literally, so I don't think that my interpretation of Christianity would see homosexuality is immoral or sinful. There are several newer denominations of the religion that believe that too. It makes sense not to take the Bible literally.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niall

Okay this might be long and slightly convoluted, but I'm going to try my best to explain myself..... etc. etc.

Niall, can I cut in and say something? The parts of the Bible that Christians follow is the New Testament, which is about two thousand years old. Jesus never says outright anywhere in that Testament that he is against homosexuality. Jesus was a Jew, as you know, and what he did say is that he endorses the Law of Moses - from the Old Testament which is more than 5000 years old. The parts you mention from Leviticus - I agree with you totally that they are archaic and ridiculous. I hope that there does come a time when all religions realise that if you love someone and want to marry them, it can never be wrong. Unfortunately, it's taken five thousand years to get to this point, and unfortunately I feel there's a long road still to tread.

I am not a Christian, but I do know that what Jesus did say in the New Testament, many times, is 'love each other'. Maybe if the church concentrated on that rather than a 5000 year old piece of text, everyone would be happier.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Livia

Niall, can I cut in and say something? The parts of the Bible that Christians follow is the New Testament, which is about two thousand years old. Jesus never says outright anywhere in that Testament that he is against homosexuality. Jesus was a Jew, as you know, and what he did say is that he endorses the Law of Moses - from the Old Testament which is more than 5000 years old. The parts you mention from Leviticus - I agree with you totally that they are archaic and ridiculous. I hope that there does come a time when all religions realise that if you love someone and want to marry them, it can never be wrong. Unfortunately, it's taken five thousand years to get to this point, and unfortunately I feel there's a long road still to tread.

I am not a Christian, but I do know that what Jesus did say in the New Testament, many times, is 'love each other'. Maybe if the church concentrated on that rather than a 5000 year old piece of text, everyone would be happier.

Yeah thats what I hope for. It would be wonderful if the various Christian Churches saw the light and changed their tune. I just wish it would happen soon.

I mean its painful for me to see how the Church's views on homoseuxality have caused so many to become intolerant. They could help change things so much. Its sad.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niall

Yeah thats what I hope for. It would be wonderful if the various Christian Churches saw the light and changed their tune. I just wish it would happen soon.

I mean its painful for me to see how the Church's views on homoseuxality have caused so many to become intolerant. They could help change things so much. Its sad.

On a positive note, things are changing and every generation becomes a little more tolerant, even within the church. Only a few decades ago it was against the law to commit a homosexual act, as you know, and gay people had to live their lives pretty much in secret. Now, gay people are accepted throughout society to the point where there are openly gay MPs sitting in the House of Commons, something that would have been unthinkable just a couple of generations ago. Sadly there are still plenty of bigots about but it is now the bigots themselves who are the minority. I'm sure that in years to come people will be accepted for who they are. Who knows, perhaps the Christian church will lead the way for other religions to become more tolerant? After all, fifty years ago, the thought of women being priests was unthinkable. Now they hold some pretty high offices in Christianity.

[Niall]

Originally Posted by Livia

On a positive note, things are changing and every generation becomes a little more tolerant, even within the church. Only a few decades ago it was against the law to commit a homosexual act, as you know, and gay people had to live their lives pretty much in secret. Now, gay people are accepted throughout society to the point where there are openly gay MPs sitting in the House of Commons, something that would have been unthinkable just a couple of generations ago. Sadly there are still plenty of bigots about but it is now the bigots themselves who are the minority. I'm sure that in years to come people will be accepted for who they are. Who knows, perhaps the Christian church will lead the way for other religions to become more tolerant? After all, fifty years ago, the thought of women being priests was unthinkable. Now they hold some pretty high offices in Christianity.

I guess so. I forget how much has changed in the past few decades sometimes. If Christianity did lead the way for religious tolerance to homosexuality then that would be phenomenal.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Niall

I guess so. I forget how much has changed in the past few decades sometimes. If Christianity did lead the way for religious tolerance to homosexuality then that would be phenomenal.

It would indeed be nice but that's sadly never going to happen. Christianity has been running for ages and believe that homosexuality is an abomination so they're obviously stuck in their ways.

[Jords]

Yes

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

Originally Posted by Stu

BUT ... BLACK PEOPLE!

Homosexuals don't have to engage in homosexual acts though. Black people sort of do have to engage with the act of being black.

I'm not saying they should abstain ... I enjoy a bit of cock sucking myself ... but fuck a duck. The race comparisons have well and truly jumped the shark. Can we make them a bannable offense?

omfg

[billy123]

Well **** me backwards this thread is an absolute trainwreck from start to finish from both sides of the fence.

---rest of post deleted to protect the guilty---
Are people really so simple to view it as an AvB issue?

My one and only post on the thread its not worth getting involved in.

[iRyan]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

I voted no as a protest against frivolous issues like gay marriage. I long for a world where this is the most important issue but there are so many more important things. I could think of 20 issues in the world that are more important than this off the top of my head.

It's THE civil rights issue of this era though, as the issue of black equality was in the 60s/70s. Obviously there are other more important things, but in terms of social issues - it is pretty big.

If you still have the freedom to have a relationship with the person you love, how is your happiness being impaired by society? It's as if gay people think they have a right to be thought of as normal. You don't have the right to be thought of as normal. No one does. And by the way, you are not normal. If your type of relationship was normal, we'd die as a species.

This comment is so ignorant I don't even know where to begin. Homosexuality IS a normal thing, it exists not only in humans, but in virtually every living species on the planet. It's something that stops populations from being over-populated. Think of how much bigger the population would be if there WASN'T gay people, and everybody was reproducing. Our planet isn't getting any bigger. It can only sustain a certain amont of people, and gay people who cannot reproduce help regulate that.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Niall

Okay this might be long and slightly convoluted, but I'm going to try my best to explain myself.

Firstly, the Christian God is the God that I believe in. Its a belief thats deeply entrenched in me. I don't consider myself Catholic really even though I was raised as one because of their attitude to not only homosexuality, but a whole host of other issues (which I won't get into because if I did I'll be here all week ). But I do consider myself a Christian. I don't think at an omni-benevolent entity would create a group of people for the express purpose of their discrimination. Its just not logical.

I mean if you take the passage of the Bible which labels homosexuality a sin, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as that was written over 2000 years ago. Its simply not relavent to todays society. Back then maybe, what with the high amounts of disease killing people (reproduction was a necessity, and homosexuality infringed upon that I guess). But now thats no longer the case. The same part of the Bible from where that passage is lifted, also contains a verse which says that wearing wool and cotton blended clothing is also an abomination. It also says its okay to sell your daughter into slavery, stone her if she's adulterous (I think). The list goes on. I just think its absurd to actively defend the passage pertaining to homosexuality, when the other things I mentioned are also written in the same part of the book.

So I do consider my self a Christian, but with a slightly reformed (I think thats the right word?) view on the Bible and the religion in general. I don't take the Bible literally, so I don't thing that my interpretation of Christianity would see homosexuality is immoral or sinful. There are several newer denominations of the religion that believe that too. It makes sense not to take the Bible literally.

Yeah, see that's the problem I have with organised religions in general, they're out dated and also man made. Religions have had a huge amount of power over people and I think they abused that power to make people do what they want and keep them in line. Personally I don't believe in a God but if there is one I don't see why you need a religion to believe in him properly. Anyway, I guess I'm going a bit off topic with this!

[Liberty4eva]

Originally Posted by iRyan

This comment is so ignorant I don't even know where to begin. Homosexuality IS a normal thing, it exists not only in humans, but in virtually every living species on the planet. It's something that stops populations from being over-populated. Think of how much bigger the population would be if there WASN'T gay people, and everybody was reproducing. Our planet isn't getting any bigger. It can only sustain a certain amont of people, and gay people who cannot reproduce help regulate that.

Okay, if you approach this as something that helps populations then Africa needs a lot more gays (lots of people there) and Europe needs less gays because their populations are not reproducing. Like for every 2 people in Europe they produce something like 1.4 kids (something like that) and this is killing the population.

[Ninastar]

I'm all for it but I think there are far more important things in the world, especially as marriage rates are declining rapidly and divorce rates are higher than ever.

[Redway]

I'm not a religious person at all but I do know a lot about different religions and if any of you people wish to base your arguments against gay marriage on the Bible then read this:

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but *****mongers and adulterers God will judge.

The rest of my argument has been said by Niall.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Niall

Okay this might be long and slightly convoluted, but I'm going to try my best to explain myself.

Firstly, the Christian God is the God that I believe in. Its a belief thats deeply entrenched in me. I don't consider myself Catholic really even though I was raised as one because of their attitude to not only homosexuality, but a whole host of other issues (which I won't get into because if I did I'll be here all week ). But I do consider myself a Christian. I don't think at an omni-benevolent entity would create a group of people for the express purpose of their discrimination. Its just not logical.

I mean if you take the passage of the Bible which labels homosexuality a sin, it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as that was written over 2000 years ago. Its simply not relavent to todays society. Back then maybe, what with the high amounts of disease killing people (reproduction was a necessity, and homosexuality infringed upon that I guess). But now thats no longer the case. The same part of the Bible from where that passage is lifted, also contains a verse which says that wearing wool and cotton blended clothing is also an abomination. It also says its okay to sell your daughter into slavery, stone her if she's adulterous (I think). The list goes on. I just think its absurd to actively defend the passage pertaining to homosexuality, when the other things I mentioned are also written in the same part of the book.

So I do consider my self a Christian, but with a slightly reformed (I think thats the right word?) view on the Bible and the religion in general. I don't take the Bible literally, so I don't thing that my interpretation of Christianity would see homosexuality is immoral or sinful. There are several newer denominations of the religion that believe that too. It makes sense not to take the Bible literally.

Niall,I have to say what brilliant post, it is one of the most thought provoking posts I have read in the 2+years I have been on here.

One of my thoughts as to organised religion is that particularly Christianity,so called because Christians claim to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Taking the New Testament which is presented as devoted to his life and teachings, also removing from the New Testament the rather volatile opinions of Paul,who one day tells us to love one another and another is ranting against all sorts of things, I am sure his writings depended on what mood he got up in a morning.What we then find is one simple fact.

In all of the Gospels which are supposedly attributed solely to the life, words and teachings of Jesus, he himself in all those Gospels speaks about many things both new and from the Old Testament too but nowhere,anywhere, does he mention or condemn homosexuality.Not a single word.
It always amazes me that something he himself seems to have not deemed to give any instruction on or condemn whatsoever should be a basis for so much controversy in Christianity by the hierarchy of Christianity too.

Your post Niall is excellent, really well laid out and said.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Niall,I have to say what brilliant post, it is one of the most thought provoking posts I have read in the 2+years I have been on here.

One of my thoughts as to organised religion is that pariculary Christianity,so called because Christians claim to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Taking the New Testament which is presented as devoted to his life and teachings, also removing from the New Testament the rather volatile opinions of Paul,who one day tells us to love one another and another is ranting against all sorts of things, I am sure his writings depended on what mood he got up in a morning.What we then find is one simple fact.

In all of the Gospels which are supposedly attributed solely to the life, words and teachings of Jesus, he himself in all those Gospels speaks about many things both new and from the Old Testament too but nowhere,anywhere, does he mention or condemn homosexuality.Not a single word.
It always amazes me that something he himself seems to have not deemed to give any instruction on or condemn whatsoever should be a basis for so much controversy in Christianity by the hierarchy of Christianity too.

Your post Niall is excellent, really well laid out and said.

Exactly. You see, this is why I don't do religion, particularly not Christianity. A load of cack with rules and regulations that basically stops me from having a life.

I just find it funny that the Church is supposed to be a welcoming place, yet it said that homosexuality is a criminal offense and the person found in a relationship should be stoned to death, which totally contradicts one of its ten commandments, 'do not murder'.