[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

How much do you think doctors actually earn, Truth? A Junior doctor working for 10 years and saving EVERY SINGLE PENNY is unlikely to have £500k, let alone a million. And then there's those pesky things like rent, clothes and food chipping away at the balance.

6 figure salaries start at MUCH more senior grades.

You are looking at basic NHS salaries, in truth junior doctors dont stay Junior for very long and rise up through the ranks pretty quickly, some can get to Consultant level in their early 30s, there are all sorts of extras they can earn in addition to overtime, they can work for drug companies in an advisory capacity, if they specialise they can be paid to give talks at meeting, where all expenses are by the drug company, they can edit Medical journals and be paid for it, most run private clinics alongside their NHS clinic, the NHS salary is just the basic, good luck to them, they work hard for it but they can earn serious salaries

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You are looking at basic NHS salaries, in truth junior doctors dont stay Junior for very long and rise up through the ranks pretty quickly, some can get to Consultant level in their early 30s

Whether that's true or not is irrelevant; if they become consultants they are no longer Junior doctors and so not part of the discussion. A few might have other things going on, and yes I am well aware of the issue with pharmaceutical kickbacks, but millionaires being "common" is just ridiculous. I actually know a lot of junior doctors, as the University I went to has a lot of med students, so the people I knew there have been doctors for 5 to 7 years at this point. None of them are even close to being "millionaires"... They have pretty normal middle class existences and incomes, hectic work lives, and little social time.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You are looking at basic NHS salaries, in truth junior doctors dont stay Junior for very long and rise up through the ranks pretty quickly, some can get to Consultant level in their early 30s, there are all sorts of extras they can earn in addition to overtime, they can work for drug companies in an advisory capacity, if they specialise they can be paid to give talks at meeting, where all expenses are by the drug company, they can edit Medical journals and be paid for it, most run private clinics alongside their NHS clinic, the NHS salary is just the basic, good luck to them, they work hard for it but they can earn serious salaries

Maybe some can add much extra to their incomes from their special interests as to medicine but it is hardly the norm.

Junior Doctors are expected to be on hand far more than Consultants too, furthermore, a Junior Doctor is only classed as such from the moment they qualify,after all their training etc.
That is all after the years of studying for same too.

They will also remain Junior Doctors for between 5 and 15 years too, that is hardly rapid advancement to specialist or Consultant level.

Many go on to do further specialist training in order to open up more doors to their future.
To claim they can become millionaires in a likely general sense is way off the realms of probability in my view.
None of my Cousins who have worked in the NHS for the last 3 to 8 years are anything like millionaires.

Actually I think they should be able to earn serious salaries anyway, why on earth should they not, they are saving peoples lives day in, day out, year after year for likely the whole of the rest of their working lives too.
In fact they should all be getting far better salaries than they actually do in my view anyway, for that fantastic work they do.

[bitontheslide]

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Whether that's true or not is irrelevant; if they become consultants they are no longer Junior doctors and so not part of the discussion. A few might have other things going on, and yes I am well aware of the issue with pharmaceutical kickbacks, but millionaires being "common" is just ridiculous. I actually know a lot of junior doctors, as the University I went to has a lot of med students, so the people I knew there have been doctors for 5 to 7 years at this point. None of them are even close to being "millionaires"... They have pretty normal middle class existences and incomes, hectic work lives, and little social time.

The point I'm making is junior doctors move up the scale pretty quickly, so the time they actually are "junior" can be as short as 5 years, I never mentioned the word millionaire

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Maybe some can add much extra to their incomes from their special interests as to medicine but it is hardly the norm.

Junior Doctors are expected to be on hand far more than Consultants too, furthermore, a Junior Doctor is only classed as such from the moment they qualify,after all their training etc.
That is all after the years of studying for same too.

They will also remain Junior Doctors for between 5 and 15 years too, that is hardly rapid advancement to specialist or Consultant level.

Many go on to do further specialist training in order to open up more doors to their future.
To claim they can become millionaires in a likely general sense is way off the realms of probability in my view.
None of my Cousins who have worked in the NHS for the last 3 to 8 years are anything like millionaires.

Actually I think they should be able to earn serious salaries anyway, why on earth should they not, they are saving peoples lives day in, day out, year after year for likely the whole of the rest of their working lives too.
In fact they should all be getting far better salaries than they actually do in my view anyway, for that fantastic work they do.

5 years is more the norm than 15, ...15 would be more realistically applied to the ones who are happy to remain within their grade and do not actively seek promotion, but they will be on the top end of the junior doctor scale earning around 70k basic ( which in London is not a high salary tbf)


I agree they should be well remunerated so I agree with you on that Joey

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

The government is not destroying the NHS and it is ridiculous to suggest that they are. Does it approach its running differently from a Labour government? Yes it does, but that doesn't make it wrong. Labour showed all to well how to **** up the NHS during their time in office

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

Dont get personal with me mate just because I hold a different view to your own

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

The government is not destroying the NHS and it is ridiculous to suggest that they are. Does it approach its running differently from a Labour government? Yes it does, but that doesn't make it wrong. Labour showed all to well how to **** up the NHS during their time in office

This (meaning Tory post 2010) government demonstrably *is* systematically dismantling the NHS, whether you choose to believe it or not. The size of the NHS means it has always had deep problems but the major failings, which are increasing, have been cynically crafted by a Tory government that wants a switch to private, insurance-funded health care but simply cannot say so explicitly because of how (rightly) unpopular it would be.

They are shifting us to private health care through the back door, and making such palatable by creating situations that erode the publics faith in the NHS. There's really no two ways about that.

[Kizzy]

100% agree with that Hunt is the privatisation tzar.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Dont get personal with me mate just because I hold a different view to your own

Not getting personal at all, stop trying to take the topic off course.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I do hope you have the money to cover medical expenses in the future because attitudes like that will lead to the NHS becoming nothing but a memory.

Without Junior Doctors we are ****ed. The hours that Hospital Staff work is ridiculous and unsustainable and the Tories know that an they rely on people like you who are quick to blame the Junior Doctors to aid in the destruction of the NHS.

Working long hours almost every day is ridiculous and unhealthy and Jeremy Hunt knows it. He's just pushing the whole 7 day plan as a way to destroy the NHS. There aren't enough medical staff to sustain his plans and making them work for less is only going to drive future medical students into the private sector or into another line of work altogether.

If you want the NHS to survive you have to support the JD's, swallowing the Tory bull**** will only lead to it's ruin.

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This (meaning Tory post 2010) government demonstrably *is* systematically dismantling the NHS, whether you choose to believe it or not. The size of the NHS means it has always had deep problems but the major failings, which are increasing, have been cynically crafted by a Tory government that wants a switch to private, insurance-funded health care but simply cannot say so explicitly because of how (rightly) unpopular it would be.

They are shifting us to private health care through the back door, and making such palatable by creating situations that erode the publics faith in the NHS. There's really no two ways about that.

sometimes privatising certain areas is better..compare the computer systems in nhs wales to nhs england...this is why englands waiting lists are way way shorter...they have a national database....the mindless socialist unionist way of non thinking is what brought about the collapse of coal too...they must find a compromise they must engage their brains

..especially when the service still remains free and the service and waiting lists fall...in the end thats all that matters

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

100% agree with that Hunt is the privatisation tzar.

hunt is 100% irrelevant...the nhs must become 7 day a week at the same level that means 4 day on 4 day off doctors contracts...it also means in time we must tear up the insane 2004 gp doctors contract allowing them all to avoid all out of hours work

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

dont you understand simple maths? this new contract means they work LESS hours

So if jr drs are already stretched how is asking them to work less going to work? Recruit more... Just have wards staffed with nurse practitioners?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

So they should just lie down and let this governemnt destroy the NHS?

labour did that....remmeber mrsa everywhere at 70 times the rate of sweden?
remember the endless cover ups and abuses? 1500 patients died of thirst in stafford....doctors admitted they were bullied and intimidated not to complain, the ombudsmen and complaints system collapsed....endless cover ups, in wales they took body parts without authorisation....the waiting lists in wales under labour are insane compared to england....the way its run with these monstrous trusts is totally wasteful and corrupt and in many ways plain stupid....their block booking systems are crazy, you cant get scanned at weekends, you cant get your test results for simple things like eye tests for up to 6 to 10 weeks? in england you get the results the same day

the welsh nhs is an absolute shambles

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So if jr drs are already stretched how is asking them to work less going to work? Recruit more... Just have wards staffed with nurse practitioners?

again its really simple maths...at present less than a third work weekends and the mass of workload falls on those few junior doctors who overwork up to 91 hours..under the new contracts they all work some weekends so the workload is spread more evenly throughout ALL junior doctors...please understand this basic fact. forget tory v labour for a moment. this is why all huge organizations use these 4 day on 4 day off continental work shift patterns. the nhs should of course do exactly the same.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Whether that's true or not is irrelevant; if they become consultants they are no longer Junior doctors and so not part of the discussion. A few might have other things going on, and yes I am well aware of the issue with pharmaceutical kickbacks, but millionaires being "common" is just ridiculous. I actually know a lot of junior doctors, as the University I went to has a lot of med students, so the people I knew there have been doctors for 5 to 7 years at this point. None of them are even close to being "millionaires"... They have pretty normal middle class existences and incomes, hectic work lives, and little social time.

the nhs cant afford to pay these rich people double time or more for working weekends....further more all junior doctors should have to work some weekends as a compulsory part of their contracts to spread the workload throughout the doctors to ensure the minority are not overworked...under labour junior doctors work up to 91 hours, that is insane. under the tories that is reduced to maximum 72 hours. so its labour who overwork them in their hairbrained system. yet its labour who preach about the poor tired doctors. labour are full of BS

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Maybe some can add much extra to their incomes from their special interests as to medicine but it is hardly the norm.

Junior Doctors are expected to be on hand far more than Consultants too, furthermore, a Junior Doctor is only classed as such from the moment they qualify,after all their training etc.
That is all after the years of studying for same too.

They will also remain Junior Doctors for between 5 and 15 years too, that is hardly rapid advancement to specialist or Consultant level.

Many go on to do further specialist training in order to open up more doors to their future.
To claim they can become millionaires in a likely general sense is way off the realms of probability in my view.
None of my Cousins who have worked in the NHS for the last 3 to 8 years are anything like millionaires.

Actually I think they should be able to earn serious salaries anyway, why on earth should they not, they are saving peoples lives day in, day out, year after year for likely the whole of the rest of their working lives too.
In fact they should all be getting far better salaries than they actually do in my view anyway, for that fantastic work they do.

They do earn considerable amounts of money with incredible pensions too...The pension issue shouldnt be devalued ...these days youd need to spend £1 million pounds to earn a £50,000 pension per annum...These doctors get pensions in excess of £50,000 p/a
However to pay them more money where does that money come from?
well Id suggest 1) we abolish the GP contract of 2004 to get more GPs doing some out fo hours. This is in effect takes massive rpessure off all hospitals and all junior doctors, which would save the nhs a fortune , especially in extra staffing hours and overtime

now were out fo the bankrupt EU we will finally be allowed to recruit the 10,000s of nurses and doctors we need outside of europe. get recruiting. this will not only improve everything it will save the nhs billions in recruting tmeporary staff cover at double the rates

massively reduce the trusts and the trust members and staff. I have dealth with these dreadful people they add nothing to the nhs, they save nothing, they are not medically qualified they simply bleed money out of the nhs....reduce the salaries of the CEO's too.....Matrons are good they are on £81,000 thats a hefty salary. strengthen the obudsmen and the complaints procedures , this is far better than cover ups. the problems must be addressed honestly and openly or they are never fixed

pump more money into the front end. i.e in getting millions more people scanned far quicker with results in many cases the same day. this will save billions in the long run. billions saved in bed blocking, in taking excess medicataions, in seeing people get sicker....get people scanned quicker, get them diagnosed , treated and better...atm many multi million pound machines are simply not used...in my local one machine that finds kidney stones is used 3 hours a week?

a lot of this is common sense practice

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

again its really simple maths...at present less than a third work weekends and the mass of workload falls on those few junior doctors who overwork up to 91 hours..under the new contracts they all work some weekends so the workload is spread more evenly throughout ALL junior doctors...please understand this basic fact. forget tory v labour for a moment. this is why all huge organizations use these 4 day on 4 day off continental work shift patterns. the nhs should of course do exactly the same.

Again who is going to fund this?

[Toy Soldier]

When you consider the amount of study that goes into becoming a doctor, and the hours required to progress, all you're going to do is make it an unattractive profession for the most able and intelligent applicants. Intelligent young people will have less incentive to apply themselves to the pursuit of that career and will go into other industries where they can make the same or better money. Fewer of the best minds going into medicine, worse doctors, more misdiagnosis and treatment errors, more death. A race to the bottom. Simple as that.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Again who is going to fund this?

if you read what i said properly, you dont need extra money, money is not always the answer , you just change where the money is going...

1) scrap some health boards and concentrate more into less
2) massive overhaul of who sits on these boards and earns a fortune. why do we need so many people on massive salaraies who are not medically qualified and do not save lives
3) when we build hospital lifts ensure all parts are available long term in this country. many hospital lifts become extoncy effectively after a few yrs as we cant get the parts. this is mindless
4) 4 day on 4 day off work shifts for EVERYONE. this ensures the standards are maintaiend, this massively reduces the waiting lists as hospitals dont half close down at weekends then start up again monday
5) early testing will save a fortune in medication, in staffing, in bed blocking etc
6) getting people scanned and cured ealrier means more people working paying into the system, less people needing sickness benefits...both put more money into the system
7) the stronger ombudesmen will allow contructive criticisms to be made privately and then acted on to improve the system
8) write an nhs constitution so that every buys into the culture and has an over view of what the nhs is for and what its mant to achieve. its for the patients , period
9) gp 2004 contracts scrapped so they must do some out of hours. again takes pressure off the nhs and saves them money long term
10) recruiting staff outside the eu will save billions , at the moment billions are wasted on paying for temporary staffing. outside the eu we can recuit as many doctors and nurses permanently outside the eu , this will save tens of billions

There are almost infinite inefficiencies in the nhs....having a uk wide database for all waiting lists is the best way forward....if you need urgent scanning for kidney stones go on the uk national database and guess what you may get seen in a week rather than 6 months....wouldnt you travel to north wales for a day if it saved you 6 months of agony?


one other massive area they are getting it right in scotland and wrong everywhere else is in scotland

where they have merged the social care with the nhs care udner 1 roof
in england and wales the social are permanently at war with the nhs over who covers what care and who pays for it

its insane and it destroys families too

all under 1 roof....this saves the endless back and forth
it saves the endless ridiculous battles over caring for people at home too

furthermore the nhs need to ensure all patients who do have private care policies actually utilise these policies to cover some of these expenses

for example if you had a £20,000 per annum care policy but your care at home costs £40,000 there is no reason why the patients cant use £20,000 of his policy then the nhs covers the rest....this saves them £20,000 a year
multiply that by the millions cared for at home and your taling billions per annum

this saldy is NOT the way its done now...usually this private policy money is not cashed in and the nhs loses billions and the insurance companies are let off the hook

its just stupid

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Again who is going to fund this?

again it doesnt need more money