[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The first thing I want to say is that, if someone's life can be improved by them living as a member of the sex opposite to that which they were born to, then I would encourage them to do that. It's such a short life, people should do whatever they can to be happy.

That said, I personally do not consider transsexuals to be "real" women, they are transsexuals. As people have said, the transition from girl to woman and the experiences you go through are important elements of what makes you a woman. As Kizzy said, as people are identifying with the opposite sex earlier and earlier, this might change.

That kind of scares me a bit though, I'm not keen on children being encouraged to transition into another gender, they're too young imo

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That kind of scares me a bit though, I'm not keen on children being encouraged to transition into another gender, they're too young imo

Yeah, I see that.

Half of me thinks that kids just want to be different... stand out... might want to transition without actually knowing what it means... It must be a nightmare if it's your child.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm going to attempt to put my view as simply as I can, I think you can be born male and female, and you ca choose to be male or female.

But for a male to become a man and a female to become a woman I think that happens via socialisation over the course of your life. So in short only males and females born into these genders can have the experience which shape us interpersonally and intrapersonally.

As said however people are identifying as trans younger and younger, so this would be new territory, they won't necessarily have that whole issue of living a large part of their lives as one gender before transitioning, therefore would I consider those 'women'?
I'm inclined to think not, as for me I just cannot separate the female to woman aspect and indicates a new term is warranted.

The problem, particularly for mature men, is, they normally have all the features of a man and so even if they do transition successfully, without cosmetic surgery they will always look like a cock in a frock. And then there's a double problem. No matter how much they transform their face and their body, they will still have the horrors of a masculine voice.

Do these masculine features and a deep voice make them less acceptable as women?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The problem, particularly for mature men, is, they normally have all the features of a man and so even if they do transition successfully, without cosmetic surgery they will always look like a cock in a frock. And then there's a double problem. No matter how much they transform their face and their body, they will still have the horrors of a masculine voice.

Do these masculine features and a deep voice make them less acceptable as women?

Not for me no, even if you looked like a supermodel after transitioning I would have no issue accepting a person as female, that I don't have any qualms about, although I wouldn't see them as a woman either.
However you want to live is ok with me.