[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I was just thinking that! I wasn't on here for Kellie's series and was curious if this amount of focus on the trans issue was normal

I would say with Luke A though that there is generally more of an objection to trans women in society than trans men.

It seems to be more common for male to female though (or am I way off base about that?) Certainly male to female transgenders are more vocal and seem to be making most demands about prisons, sport, shared changing areas etc. and being realistic men are more of a danger to women in general, women (in general) aren't much of a physical threat to men. I've been learning alot about all this recently through our chats and through Vicky and it seems like maybe the reason people are starting to worry more (mainly women i guess) is because of this whole thing now of a man just deciding he's a woman and that's that, it's not really transsexual like India is though, it's all still very confusing to me tbqh

[Babayaro.]

Are we all in agreement that Kellie was a complete twat though?

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Livia

Trans women are trans women. I'm happy for them to be who they are and live without fear and in happiness. But they are not the same as me.

They're not claiming to be the 'same'. Noone is the 'same' as anybody else. And 'trans' isn't a description of gender. A lot of issues with this are just semantics and confusion over categorisation. Trans women being referred to as women doesn't mean they are the 'same' as women born female, both can coexist as women and still be considered different.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Babayaro.

Are we all in agreement that Kellie was a complete twat though?

Yes but she was brilliant telly

[Amy Jade]

Originally Posted by Livia

Trans women are trans women. I'm happy for them to be who they are and live without fear and in happiness. But they are not the same as me.

I feel totally different. I think once somebody has transitoned they are the sex they transitioned to - I see a trans women as my equal,

[LeatherTrumpet]

Not sure why predominately gay members who are immersed in such topics think that your average jo public bloke will think the same as them when they come across a woman like India

its very intolerant of you tbh

You can be dismayed that society is not as accepting as you are but to be angry and start name calling is to not understand the world you live in

incremental acceptance my friends is the way it happens

Boy George got all this abuse after Karma Chameleon

Now he is a national treasure

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Babayaro.

Are we all in agreement that Kellie was a complete twat though?

yep, arsehole

[Babayaro.]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Yes but she was brilliant telly

Squaring up to Leslie

[Jake.]

Originally Posted by Babayaro.

Are we all in agreement that Kellie was a complete twat though?

Originally Posted by Firewire

Yes but she was brilliant telly

.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

I feel totally different. I think once somebody has transitoned they are the sex they transitioned to - I see a trans women as my equal,

I agree that they are my equal. But they are trans woman. Different, but still equal.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It seems to be more common for male to female though (or am I way off base about that?) Certainly male to female transgenders are more vocal and seem to be making most demands about prisons, sport, shared changing areas etc. and being realistic men are more of a danger to women in general, women (in general) aren't much of a physical threat to men. I've been learning alot about all this recently through our chats and through Vicky and it seems like maybe the reason people are starting to worry more (mainly women i guess) is because of this whole thing now of a man just deciding he's a woman and that's that, it's not really transsexual like India is though, it's all still very confusing to me tbqh

They are technically more common I believe (although there's so much around this, diagnosis is a big factor, or misdiagnosis, it really is a big issue in itself) and yes we hear more about them for those reasons you gave. But when it's one specific trans person being discussed I don't really see why those things should matter, it should just be the person and their views that are discussed, otherwise it can come over as prejudice. If we're just taking 2 people, Luke A, and India Willoughby, and comparing the attitudes towards them.

[Amy Jade]

Originally Posted by Livia

I agree that they are my equal. But they are trans woman. Different, but still equal.

I understand what you are saying and I have had a similar discussion with my auntie yesterday who pretty much said what you did and she said I may feel different if I had had children, (she supports India btw she's not being nasty) but I guess my view is very black and write in a sense.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

They are technically more common I believe (although there's so much around this, diagnosis is a big factor, or misdiagnosis, it really is a big issue in itself) and yes we hear more about them for those reasons you gave. But when it's one specific trans person being discussed I don't really see why those things should matter, it should just be the person and their views that are discussed, otherwise it can come over as prejudice. If we're just taking 2 people, Luke A, and India Willoughby, and comparing the attitudes towards them.

I was just guessing really why maybe people are more "against" this now (if that's the right word), because these issues have come about in recent times and weren't a concern for people a few years back? I don't know I'm just speculating really

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Amy Jade

I understand what you are saying and I have had a similar discussion with my auntie yesterday who pretty much said what you did and she said I may feel different if I had had children, (she supports India btw she's not being nasty) but I guess my view is very black and write in a sense.

Yes, like your aunt, I mean no disrespect to India, not at all.

[bitontheslide]

Kelly created much more controversy than India, that's a fact i'm pretty sure on. That was for a number of reasons including Kelly's background prior to appearing on BB, and the fact that she was early on in her development

My feeling is that many are being way over sensitive for whatever reason with respect to India. People have not been transphobic on this forum anywhere that I have seen. Not everyone is as clued up with whats "the correct" thing to say when referring to a trans person, and they are being insulted by the hounds when they haven't actually said anything wrong. It doesn't improve understanding of situations when that tactic is used, and it certainly doesn't encourage meaningful debate

[Tom4784]

It's always the same whenever a transgender housemate goes in although I can't remember it being that bad for Luke A but that just might be not remembering much of that season.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Trans women are trans women. I'm happy for them to be who they are and live without fear and in happiness. But they are not the same as me.

Or me ,Ive had babies

[Epic.]

Originally Posted by Babayaro.

Are we all in agreement that Kellie was a complete twat though?

Sort of, but she was going through hormones that happen following a sex change. She was a fantastic housemate and up there with Gary, Frenchy, and Leslie as a highlight of her series

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Or me ,Ive had babies

had them?

i made them in a host body and then smoked a cigar

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Not sure why predominately gay members who are immersed in such topics think that your average jo public bloke will think the same as them when they come across a woman like India

its very intolerant of you tbh

You can be dismayed that society is not as accepting as you are but to be angry and start name calling is to not understand the world you live in

incremental acceptance my friends is the way it happens

Boy George got all this abuse after Karma Chameleon

Now he is a national treasure

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

had them?

i made them in a host body and then smoked a cigar

Ive still got them too

[Rob!]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Not sure why predominately gay members who are immersed in such topics think that your average jo public bloke will think the same as them when they come across a woman like India

its very intolerant of you tbh

You can be dismayed that society is not as accepting as you are but to be angry and start name calling is to not understand the world you live in

incremental acceptance my friends is the way it happens

Boy George got all this abuse after Karma Chameleon

Now he is a national treasure

I'll tell you exactly why - because gay people know what discrimination feels like. You as a straight, white male do not actually know what it feels like to have to deal with people criticising you because you feel a different way to the "norm." You haven't experienced the hurling of abuse or the caustic comments, the rolling of the eyes, or had to simply accept the fact that discussions like this are even needed to feel like you have a place in society that is just as equal as anything else. Gay people know what that feels like, and we know exactly how much further there is to go. And trans people have even further and so many mountains yet to climb. You may feel like we are shouting louder than needed and being oversensitive and you know what? Maybe there are LGBT people out there who should reign it in, because otherwise it makes them no better. But on the other hand, and sorry to use a rather extreme example, but straight white males or females aren't illegal in some countries. There are countries in the world that way over half of this forum cannot go to and completely be ourselves because we would be at genuine risk of being arrested, or murdered or both.
Trans people go through exactly the same as us, and then some. It's ten times worse for them because they need to actually alter their body in extremely painful and emotionally scarring ways in order to feel happy in ways that a lot of us completely take for granted. On top of that, they are subject to ignorant comments by people who genuinely have absolutely zero idea what they're talking about. You aren't made to feel like a freak, or a creature, or a skidmark on society for being who you are on a day to day basis. LGBT people are. And that's why you're going to find people fighting tooth and claw to stand up for people who have to explain themselves every single day.

[Ant.]

Originally Posted by Rob!

I'll tell you exactly why - because gay people know what discrimination feels like. You as a straight, white male do not actually know what it feels like to have to deal with people criticising you because you feel a different way to the "norm." You haven't experienced the hurling of abuse or the caustic comments, the rolling of the eyes, or had to simply accept the fact that discussions like this are even needed to feel like you have a place in society that is just as equal as anything else. Gay people know what that feels like, and we know exactly how much further there is to go. And trans people have even further and so many mountains yet to climb. You may feel like we are shouting louder than needed and being oversensitive and you know what? Maybe there are LGBT people out there who should reign it in, because otherwise it makes them no better. But on the other hand, and sorry to use a rather extreme example, but straight white males or females aren't illegal in some countries. There are countries in the world that way over half of this forum cannot go to and completely be ourselves because we would be at genuine risk of being arrested, or murdered or both.
Trans people go through exactly the same as us, and then some. It's ten times worse for them because they need to actually alter their body in extremely painful and emotionally scarring ways in order to feel happy in ways that a lot of us completely take for granted. On top of that, they are subject to ignorant comments by people who genuinely have absolutely zero idea what they're talking about. You aren't made to feel like a freak, or a creature, or a skidmark on society for being who you are on a day to day basis. LGBT people are. And that's why you're going to find people fighting tooth and claw to stand up for people who have to explain themselves every single day.

[MTVN]

Kellie had it worse from what I remember. She faced a lot of people who both refused to see her as a woman but also questioned her motivations and thought it was a stunt etc. especially by going into the house so soon after announcing her transition. India hasn't had the latter at least

[Rob!]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Kellie had it worse from what I remember. She faced a lot of people who both refused to see her as a woman but also questioned her motivations and thought it was a stunt etc. especially by going into the house so soon after announcing her transition. India hasn't had the latter at least

I think it’s as a few people have said though - he also had a lot of backlash from the LGBT community as well. Almost like “Oh, so NOW you want our support?”