[optimisticcynic]

Originally Posted by Shaun

She didn't put herself across well at all but that could very easily have been a disaster area for Ginuwine.

Whilst she made it about herself and everyone seemed to think she was just upset because he wouldn't go for her, she did have a point to be fair in that writing off an entire demographic is a little bit ignorant. It's not acceptable for people to say "I wouldn't date/marry/**** black guys" so this isn't really that different. Might not have found one attractive yet, and the biology might be confusing/off-putting, but it's still a sweeping generalisation, and something that a lot of people can excuse their bigotries with calling it "a preference".

Reminds me of that Sky show about 15 years ago, 'There's Something About Miriam'. It's very possible for people to pass as sexually desirable until someone mentions the dirty word and you have to wonder how many of those on that show would indeed have slept with her without the stigma. I have to admit I'm not well-versed on the biology/practicality of full MTF genital surgery though.

Sadly I think a lot of transphobia is going to be peddled because India happens to be a self-centred, ignorant drama queen, and that's not fair on her or anyone who's a little less whiney.

Arguing that stating you would not knowingly get together with a trans person is ignorant is flawed logic, as that makes heterosexual men and women instantly homophobic. “How can they say they’re straight when they haven’t met everyone of the same sex yet?”
Agreeing that people have the right to determine how they want to live does not necessarily dictate that they should agree with the rationale behind the decision. As with religion, I may respect that someone converts to Catholicism, but I don’t have to genuflect whenever I walk past a cross.
How can anyone demanding the right to identify as they desire criticise others for doing the same thing?
Sounds like in this instance a main driver is an external locus of validation and a need to accordingly assert control through her own sense of gender identity. This is abusive, especially whee others might be paralysed by a fear of offending, and India is clever enough to be aware of this.

[MTVN]

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

I wonder what the answer would be if someone asked Ginuwine whether he would date someone born a woman... who is over 50. I can guess what the answer would be and I doubt any of the 50+ women in there would go and throw themselves on the bed sobbing.

Exactly. It is not up to some to decide who others should/should not want to date. We all have personal preferences from the large to the small. No one wants to live in that kind of nanny state.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

Well, they are trans women rather than women, a topic that has been thrashed around in recent days. There is a big difference and that's where sexual preference comes in. Its not discriminatory as it is a preference.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

Trans women have been men. Surely they must know that not all men will want to be with someone who has a manmade vagina and who used to be a male. Alternatively there will be other men who adore trans women.

And as for acceptance... there is a huge section of society that doesn't see trans women as "real women". Because they're not. They are transsexual women. I've said this before but it's worth saying again... transsexual women are not the same as those of us born a woman... but they are worth exactly the same.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by optimisticcynic

Arguing that stating you would not knowingly get together with a trans person is ignorant is flawed logic, as that makes heterosexual men and women instantly homophobic. “How can they say they’re straight when they haven’t met everyone of the same sex yet?”
Agreeing that people have the right to determine how they want to live does not necessarily dictate that they should agree with the rationale behind the decision. As with religion, I may respect that someone converts to Catholicism, but I don’t have to genuflect whenever I walk past a cross.
How can anyone demanding the right to identify as they desire criticise others for doing the same thing?
Sounds like in this instance a main driver is an external locus of validation and a need to accordingly assert control through her own sense of gender identity. This is abusive, especially whee others might be paralysed by a fear of offending, and India is clever enough to be aware of this.

Good post and very true.

[Withano]

I'm sure there are some out there who would only date transgenders. There is at least some 'preference' in it - it doesnt instantly come down to transphobia.

I get why India is upset in a way, but I think she's too self-centric to understand any type of negativity related to her.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Shaun

She didn't put herself across well at all but that could very easily have been a disaster area for Ginuwine.

Whilst she made it about herself and everyone seemed to think she was just upset because he wouldn't go for her, she did have a point to be fair in that writing off an entire demographic is a little bit ignorant. It's not acceptable for people to say "I wouldn't date/marry/**** black guys" so this isn't really that different. Might not have found one attractive yet, and the biology might be confusing/off-putting, but it's still a sweeping generalisation, and something that a lot of people can excuse their bigotries with calling it "a preference".

Reminds me of that Sky show about 15 years ago, 'There's Something About Miriam'. It's very possible for people to pass as sexually desirable until someone mentions the dirty word and you have to wonder how many of those on that show would indeed have slept with her without the stigma. I have to admit I'm not well-versed on the biology/practicality of full MTF genital surgery though.

Sadly I think a lot of transphobia is going to be peddled because India happens to be a self-centred, ignorant drama queen, and that's not fair on her or anyone who's a little less whiney.

I am not a gay man, therefore I would not date a gay man. Is that any more clear? It's certainly not ignorant at all. Genuwine saying I am a straight man and would not date a trans woman is no different. It's not transphobia at all, just like a gay man, a straight man is allowed a preference.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

Trans women have been men. Surely they must know that not all men will want to be with someone who has a manmade vagina and who used to be a male. Alternatively there will be other men who adore trans women.

And as for acceptance... there is a huge section of society that doesn't see trans women as "real women". Because they're not. They are transsexual women. I've said this before but it's worth saying again... transsexual women are not the same as those of us born a woman... but they are worth exactly the same.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Well, they are trans women rather than women, a topic that has been thrashed around in recent days. There is a big difference and that's where sexual preference comes in. Its not discriminatory as it is a preference.

I appreciate that a lot of people do not consider transwomen to be women, but while that view might be common enough it would still be insulting to transwomen and it's not surprising they'd be hurt by it

[optimisticcynic]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

“Hope” is the key term here. The hope that others see you as you wish to be seen is not a “right”. Nothing can be so simple. My belief that I am heterosexual is likely as upsetting for anyone who is non-binary but was born in a male category, but this is a reality based on my experiences and desires. I am sad that it may cause them sadness, but as long as my sexual attraction to them is the only way that they are excluded, this is a fact of life. If something in my life changes this, then I review my stance and metamorphosise into my next stage of life. This may have happened for some regarding trans people had India not been such an unstable, self-loathing, projecting tosspot. If she is the only sample of the transgender community that some of the public have ever encountered, imagine the damage she is doing.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I appreciate that a lot of people do not consider transwomen to be women, but while that view might be common enough it would still be insulting to transwomen and it's not surprising they'd be hurt by it

But its true ,they are not a full blown woman and never can be

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I appreciate that a lot of people do not consider transwomen to be women, but while that view might be common enough it would still be insulting to transwomen and it's not surprising they'd be hurt by it

We all get hurt by rejection. It is a fact of life for all of us that we cannot be protected from. India is no exception. For crying out loud she is over 50 and needs to grow up.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I appreciate that a lot of people do not consider transwomen to be women, but while that view might be common enough it would still be insulting to transwomen and it's not surprising they'd be hurt by it

If we take it right back to basics, and this is very applicable in the case of Ginuwine as he has 9 kids. To many in society, procreation is about bringing new generations into the world, its a base instinct across all animals for survival of the species. To interfere with that natural process is next to impossible as it is in the DNA

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by lostalex

gender and sex are 2 different things. 1 of them is real the other is not.

Gender is a social construct...nothing more than personality + dress sense when it comes down to it. Sex is real, and unchangeable with science as it stands today, and India does not even slightly 'pass' so India has no chance with anyone who is solely attracted to female people.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Imo there's a false equivalency being made between refusing to date a transwoman and just preferring blondes or not wanting to go out with older women which misses the point that India is trying to make. Being a transsexual is not an aspect of appearance. By refusing to even entertain the idea of being with a transwoman you are putting up an insurmountable barrier to a transwomans hopes of being accepted as a woman at all.

Its not really refusing to entertain the idea of being with a transwoman though. Its refusing to entertain the idea of being with a male person. The trans does not come into it as much as actual sex does I know its 'trendy' to pretend sex is not real and does not matter these days, so I am pretty old school in my views, but sex does actually matter and to say it does not, is homophobic and actually heterophobic (if I believed that was a thing, just for sake of argument) at the same time!

[optimisticcynic]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Gender is a social construct...nothing more than personality + dress sense when it comes down to it. Sex is real, and unchangeable with science as it stands today, and India does not even slightly 'pass' so India has no chance with anyone who is solely attracted to female people.

There is often an issue differentiating between gender identity and gender role. I am happy to admit that I am baffled as to how people can be born “the wrong gender”. People are born as they are born, and may decide to do something about this at a later time. That is completely their call. But to identify the birth status as a mistake suggests predestination which makes little scientific sense. Is it possible that gender role which is so variable between cultures and times is more at the root of dissonance experienced? Can you be born the wrong race? Wasn’t there huge outrage when religious groups have claimes that people have been born with the wrong sexuality and that this can and should be “fixed”?
Intrigued to know more.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I appreciate that a lot of people do not consider transwomen to be women, but while that view might be common enough it would still be insulting to transwomen and it's not surprising they'd be hurt by it

Similarly, when I have worked really hard as a woman in a male dominated workplace, to get to the position I'm in, I find it insulting to be told that someone who transitioned at 50 is the same as I am, and I would be hurt by it. India got to 50 enjoying all the privilege and advantage of being a white man.

They are worth as much, but trans women are not the same as born women. And no one has the right to tell me I am not entitled to that opinion.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Its not really refusing to entertain the idea of being with a transwoman though. Its refusing to entertain the idea of being with a male person. The trans does not come into it as much as actual sex does I know its 'trendy' to pretend sex is not real and does not matter these days, so I am pretty old school in my views, but sex does actually matter and to say it does not, is homophobic and actually heterophobic (if I believed that was a thing, just for sake of argument) at the same time!

Great post.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by optimisticcynic

There is often an issue differentiating between gender identity and gender role. I am happy to admit that I am baffled as to how people can be born “the wrong gender”. People are born as they are born, and may decide to do something about this at a later time. That is completely their call. But to identify the biryh status as a mistake suggests predestination which majes litgle scientific sense. Is it possible that gender role which is so variable between cultures and times is more at the root of dissonance experienced? Can you be born the wrong race? Wasn’t there huge outrage when religious groups have claimes that people have been born with the wrong sexuality and that this can and should be “fixed”?
Intrigued to know more.

Apparently not, but I actually do not see the difference between transgender and transracial, but apparently one is horrendous and the other totally fine The arguments seem to be exactly the same for both, to me.

If we did not live in such a 'gendered' society, I really doubt many trans people would exist, if men could wear dresses and sparkles without other people taking the piss and such. There would still be people with sex dysphoria, much in the way there will still be anorexic people even if the world stops being so obsessed with thinness...but there would not be as many as there are today, thats for sure. For so many 'transgender' people it seems to be about stereotypes rather than body. And its body, not stereotypes that make someone male or female. FFS if we are going on stereotypes followed, I am actually male. if we are going on 'internal gender identity' then I do not exist at all as I do not have one and do not believe in souls.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

It's generalising every single black person as the same - not worthy of your body, how is it not racist? It's not hateful, sure, but I'm entirely uncomfortable with just going "no jews, no latinos" or whatever on a dating profile. Maybe I'm just not fussy



An interesting point but is more down to your requirement of a sexual partner (presumably, not a penis) rather than something like their skin colour, hair colour, operation history etc.

Tbf it's not about deciding someone is not "worthy" of your body.

You're either sexually attracted to them or you're not.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Its not really refusing to entertain the idea of being with a transwoman though. Its refusing to entertain the idea of being with a male person. The trans does not come into it as much as actual sex does I know its 'trendy' to pretend sex is not real and does not matter these days, so I am pretty old school in my views, but sex does actually matter and to say it does not, is homophobic and actually heterophobic (if I believed that was a thing, just for sake of argument) at the same time!

Well might be a dumb question.. but why does sex matter? What's so important about a person's initial biological makeup if, as you say, it does not define gender?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well might be a dumb question.. but why does sex matter? What's so important about a person's initial biological makeup if, as you say, it does not define gender?

Because people have sexualities based on...sex. Or are you going to be another saying that people should effectively get over their sexualities?

Sex matters. Trans people rarely pass. Especially transwomen.

Would you shag India?

Even if trans people pass..SRS is not advanced enough to be the same as a biological opposite sex body. Its unfortunately for trans people, but thats how it is.

[Tom4784]

It's just a matter of preference, nothing wrong with it and you can't really help who you are attracted to or not. Some people prefer certain builds or hair colours, some people just aren't attracted to certain things and I don't think that's prejudice in any way shape or form.

Malika pretty much nailed the situation on the head.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Because people have sexualities based on...sex. Or are you going to be another saying that people should effectively get over their sexualities?

Sex matters. Trans people rarely pass. Especially transwomen.

Would you shag India?

Well I dunno, I dont know how sexuality works lol. I'm not sure about India but there are a lot of transwomen who I think most straight men would be sexually attracted to if they didn't know they were trans

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well I dunno, I dont know how sexuality works lol. I'm not sure about India but there are a lot of transwomen who I think most straight men would be sexually attracted to if they didn't know they were trans

It does become a bit more complicated if the transperson passes as the sex they want to be, granted. But even then there are issues about...transwomen will most likely have a dick, and if not then they will not have an actual vagina, which is kind of a dealbreaker for a lot of people.

If someone passed 100% as a woman, could you shag them and their penis? Or get over the fact that their vagina is not a vagina, its an open wound that needs dilating and is either made of inverted penis or colon? Nothing like a 'real' vagina'.

I know this is personal...just curious how many men would be able to get over their sexuality in that way, as I suspect a lot of people just pay lip service to it and would not actually be able to do it. I am bi and still could not see myself ever with a transperson...and sex is not even important for me as I like both!