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08-05-2018, 07:21 AM | #126 | |||
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08-05-2018, 08:37 AM | #127 | |||
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This Witch doesn't burn
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08-05-2018, 03:03 PM | #128 | ||
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I think you're being very optimistic and you're minimalising the effects that Brexit may have on people now by saying that it might be worth it in the future. We don't need to be optimistic, we need to be realistic. |
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08-05-2018, 03:20 PM | #129 | ||
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So basically, in 40 years time when the majority of people who voted for Brexit will be dead and buried, we will MAYBE SORT OF be able to see if things are KIND OF ok, except totally different anyway... and if things are good, any remaining Brexit voters can say "See! This is cos of Brexit, it was right after all!"... and if things are NOT good they can say "Nothing to do with Brexit, that was decades ago and the world is a totally different place now".
Last edited by Toy Soldier; 08-05-2018 at 03:20 PM. |
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08-05-2018, 06:24 PM | #130 | ||
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08-05-2018, 11:35 PM | #131 | ||
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oh fack off
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Most of the protests in question are peaceful, with respect Kirk. As with any protest that attracts a significant turnout, there will always be a minority of opportunists looking to cause trouble. It's also important to point out the role that the police often have in provoking violence and unrest - kettling is a deliberate and almost surefire way to antagonise people and in a lot of these scenarios that's how it begins. The problem is of course is that you only get to hear of the unrest, whilst there are thousands upon thousands of people from all walks of life who have turned up with their family, friends and kids to walk down a street with a few banners. The demonstrations being organised (that provoked this thread) will be much the same thing, and I don't see a problem with that. I won't be attending one, but all power to those who do - I hope they enjoy exercising their democratic right to be there. With regards to the last sentence - unless I've misunderstood, I totally disagree. Making people accept the status quo with no dissent Just Because is a very slippery slope... Quote:
If democracy begins and ends with elections and referenda, then how come those who wanted to leave the EU have been campaigning to do so for the last four decades? After - funnily enough - the last referendum we had on the matter? At what point does it become acceptable again to express one's opposition to a particular political issue? A year? Five years? A decade? Who decides this? You? The fact is Brillo, in a fully functioning democracy, political dissent and scrutiny is not only permissible - it is encouraged. General elections and referenda are not the only democratic tools people have at their disposal. They have a number of other things too - enshrined into international law in fact. One is even that thing you protest to love so much - free speech! Freedom of assembly and the right to protest are others. If people disagree with any political agenda, whether that's Brexit, the cuts to the NHS, a town's youth centre being closed down, a Mosque opening in a local area - you name it - they're entitled to protest about it. And you will have to learn to accept that. You got what you wanted. We're leaving the EU. I don't think any of the protests are going to make a blind bit of difference, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about Brexit altogether - but they are still entitled to oppose it, protest it, call for another vote, for it to be overturned, whatever they like. Why are you so scared about that? My only advice would be to let them get on with it, it's going to make no difference to you. |
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09-05-2018, 05:52 AM | #132 | ||
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What are these people expecting to happen - that they manage to overturn that vote, by whatever deceitful means, and finally get their way - is that your idea of democracy! What if people then protest against that - where does it stop. The vote has been made - and cannot be interfered with until it goes the ‘right’ way - now that would be the very worst kind of undemocratic rule now wouldn’t it! |
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09-05-2018, 07:41 AM | #133 | |||
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"It's going to have a negative impact..." Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce? You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion. "...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) " This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery. I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word". It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims. I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly: The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One: The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007. The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners. The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson. EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting. Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels. And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only. Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission (The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.) Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner. Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner. Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner. Baroness Ashton. Lord Clinton-Davis. Lord Tugendhat Lord Richard. Etc. Etc. HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS? They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit. The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT. They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that. Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller
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09-05-2018, 07:49 AM | #134 | ||
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Last edited by Brillopad; 09-05-2018 at 07:50 AM. |
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09-05-2018, 12:30 PM | #135 | ||
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09-05-2018, 12:39 PM | #136 | ||
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Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it, if I said anything like that to you, you'd be screaming about how I'm trying to suppress your opinion. Most experts across the spectrum agree that Brexit is not going to go well, I'll believe them over ignoring likelihoods that don't benefit my views. |
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09-05-2018, 12:57 PM | #137 | ||
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At least the people you quoted have thrown their lot with the country, unlike for example Dyson who moved his production to Malaysia. Sorry, Kirk, but if Putin and Trump both think Brexit is a good thing, alarm bells should ring even in Brexiters ears. |
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09-05-2018, 01:41 PM | #138 | |||
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I am not insulting or being personal but merely stating my opinion based on my perception of your posts and I even stated; "In my opinion". Your posts on Brexit are not only ALWAYS arrogantly dismissive of the viewpoints of any other member where those viewpoints do not align with your own but also dismissive of any facts such members may state in order to support their viewpoint. You are NOT an authority on Brexit or the EU Dezzy and have no monopoly on what is true or factual ONLY an opinion based on the same information which is out there which anyone can access. I do not know your age but I would guess that you have not even the benefit of Direct Experience gained by having lived in the UK BEFORE that moralless deceitful liar Ted Heath conned us into the 'Common Market' which became the EU. In your response to the post of Brillopad, you said: "Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it" Well, I am similarly entitled.
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"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts". Daniel Patrick Moynihan (1927-2003) .................................................. .. Press The Spoiler Button to See All My Songs Spoiler: |
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09-05-2018, 01:52 PM | #139 | |||
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And 'thrown their lot in with the country' is just what they have NOT done, which is the whole essence of my post - they are LOYAL to their EU Paymasters NOT the UK populace or Government. As for Trump and Putin, perhaps they regard Brexit as a good idea because it may well suit THEIR objectives, but the fact that have expressed such a view does not ring any alarm bells with me - not like the alarm bells which are triggered EVERY time Corbyn or Abbot open their Marxist mouths.
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"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts". Daniel Patrick Moynihan (1927-2003) .................................................. .. Press The Spoiler Button to See All My Songs Spoiler: Last edited by kirklancaster; 09-05-2018 at 01:58 PM. |
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09-05-2018, 01:57 PM | #140 | ||
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09-05-2018, 02:01 PM | #141 | |||
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'Most Experts' who have a VESTED INTEREST in Remaining in the EU.
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"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts". Daniel Patrick Moynihan (1927-2003) .................................................. .. Press The Spoiler Button to See All My Songs Spoiler: |
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09-05-2018, 02:10 PM | #142 | ||
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Re. Dezzy. I'm puzzled why you think he is being intolerant in his posts. I think he disagreed with Brillo quite politely. Is this beef with him because of the combination of things like him being opinionated AND being a mod? I.e. would you also object if he posted as he does but stopped being a mod? Or stayed a mod but stopped posting? Imagine how hard it must be to be both, I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being disliked by some. But otoh, why should he stop either? This is off-topic and maybe we should talk about it in pms. But I promise I'm not going to get emotional about it like I did in the past and I won't call you a rightwing clique anymore. It's just I like this forum and the caliber of people on here and wish this beef would go away. Is it possible? |
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09-05-2018, 02:14 PM | #143 | |||
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self-oscillating
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Brexit will be neither good nor bad. It will simply be a new framework that people will work and live within. We had to adapt many times at huge expense to meet EU regulations. Many times those regulations resulted in personal hardship for individuals and for companies. This is life, people adapt to survive as they have always done and will always do
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09-05-2018, 02:22 PM | #144 | ||
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09-05-2018, 02:36 PM | #145 | |||
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As for Dezzy - My response was EXCLUSIVELY concerned with his posts on Brexit and NOTHING at all to do with anything else Twosugars. I am not one for reopening old wounds. That has been put to bed.
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09-05-2018, 02:50 PM | #146 | ||
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Kirk, we agree on the issue of undue influence. |
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09-05-2018, 04:15 PM | #147 | |||
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We certainly do Twosugars. I just wish that we could do something about it but we cannot.
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"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts". Daniel Patrick Moynihan (1927-2003) .................................................. .. Press The Spoiler Button to See All My Songs Spoiler: |
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11-05-2018, 05:41 AM | #148 | |||
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I find claims that the majority object to Trump as a bit bizarre as no one can really speak for the majority, only a national poll could do that.
How people personally feel about him is kind of irrelevant anyway, he is surprisingly reaping results on the world stage. Everyone should be grateful for North Korea's bum at the talks table. Trump got him there. And Brexit seems to have found it's way in too, with regard the 'experts', are these the same people who told us the world would end the day after a leave vote? It didn't happen. No one has a crystal ball to the future and there is no gexample of a similar situation to point at so any 'expert' take on what will happen is pure speculation. Once we have left the EU life will go on regardless, the fear is pretty pointless. For me the idea if staying in an organisation who created laws and rules for us that we had no say in for forty years is much more frightening. As is being handcuffed and gagged by our own politicals for 40 years by signing on to a political experiment we never sanctioned as a nation. Frightening and outrageous.
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this. Terry Pratchett “I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits.” ― Richard Dawkins Last edited by jaxie; 11-05-2018 at 06:15 AM. |
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11-05-2018, 02:46 PM | #149 | ||
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Last edited by Toy Soldier; 11-05-2018 at 02:46 PM. |
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12-05-2018, 07:46 AM | #150 | |||
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self-oscillating
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Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn must change stance, says Lord Kinnock Jeremy Corbyn will commit "a serious evasion of duty" if he does not change his stance on Brexit, former Labour leader Lord Kinnock has said. The peer told the Independent that Labour should endorse the UK staying in the European Economic Area (EEA) or risk "sacrificing thousands" of jobs. Staying in the EEA would mean the UK retained key aspects of the single market after leaving the EU. But Mr Corbyn has opposed this idea as the UK would not make the rules. Lord Kinnock was one of the 83 Labour peers who defied the party leadership this week and voted for an amendment to the EU Withdrawal Bill in the House of Lords to keep the UK in the EEA. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44092538 |
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