[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Jimrod

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

That's it say the truth it's music to our ears .

[Patricia4]

He did right because that is what she is a big one.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jimrod

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Great post.

At least 90% of people claiming a "phobia" need a reality check, in my opinion.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jimrod

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Spot on.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Jimrod

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Truth right here.

[Vicky.]

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

Gender-specific swear words? Now I've heard everything.

I can think of numerous women who I'd classify as a prick. India's one of them.

Do you really not have swear words that tend to be for one sex? A lot of people in this thread have said that and a few in the other thread...where I am from dickhead and wanker and prick are typically used for men (though not exclusively) and the likes of bitch are used for women. Twat is for both.

This is news to me, that it seems to be my area And scotts, possibly

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

Agree with all of that.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

If you'd said India WAS a male person I'd understand but nah this is just pretty ignorant and not really helping, tbh. I get the trans women =/= cis women argument but calling her a male person now just doesn't make sense to me.

Her talking about her past is understandable in explaining the context of what motivated her to transition, but shouldn't give green light to a group of people just calling her a man because they don't like her and she's an annoying housemate. If someone were to get a gastric band and then talk about why they didn't enjoy being fat, and how different they feel now, people wouldn't really still call them fat if they were now of an average shape

I think this series is just giving ignorant people justification to get away with all sorts of insults about transgender people.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

If you'd said India WAS a male person I'd understand but nah this is just pretty ignorant and not really helping, tbh. I get the trans women =/= cis women argument but calling her a male person now just doesn't make sense to me.

Her talking about her past is understandable in explaining the context of what motivated her to transition, but shouldn't give green light to a group of people just calling her a man because they don't like her and she's an annoying housemate. If someone were to get a gastric band and then talk about why they didn't enjoy being fat, and how different they feel now, people wouldn't really still call them fat if they were now of an average shape

I think this series is just giving ignorant people justification to get away with all sorts of insults about transgender people.

Why? She IS a male person. Yes she has had surgeries and such to resemble a woman but she is still male. And you cannot undo 50 years of male social conditioning.

I reckon if she just st fu for a bit about her transition and being male, people would actually maybe see her as a woman. But whilst shes constantly going on about it and...dare I say acting like a male person...a lot of people will see her as a male person. Compared to the likes of Nadia and Luke A...who barely spoke about it and for them it seemed being trans was a small part of who they are, whilst being trans seems to be ALL India is.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Shaun

If you'd said India WAS a male person I'd understand but nah this is just pretty ignorant and not really helping, tbh. I get the trans women =/= cis women argument but calling her a male person now just doesn't make sense to me.

Her talking about her past is understandable in explaining the context of what motivated her to transition, but shouldn't give green light to a group of people just calling her a man because they don't like her and she's an annoying housemate. If someone were to get a gastric band and then talk about why they didn't enjoy being fat, and how different they feel now, people wouldn't really still call them fat if they were now of an average shape

I think this series is just giving ignorant people justification to get away with all sorts of insults about transgender people.

India keeps talking about when she was a man and (and I say this with no insult intended) she looks like a man and dresses like a teenage girl.

I think that by putting India in the house they've set back the Trans community a couple of years. I've seen trans women on TV before, and I've met a few in real life, worked with one even, and I have never in my life seen someone so self-centred and ready to be a victim as India. Shame... it might have been a good experience, like it was when Luke A won. He was a good ambassador the the trans community, I think.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Why? She IS a male person. Yes she has had surgeries and such to resemble a woman but she is still male. And you cannot undo 50 years of male social conditioning.

I reckon if she just st fu for a bit about her transition and being male, people would actually maybe see her as a woman. But whilst shes constantly going on about it and...dare I say acting like a male person...a lot of people will see her as a male person. Compared to the likes of Nadia and Luke A...who barely spoke about it and for them it seemed being trans was a small part of who they are, whilst being trans seems to be ALL India is.

Sentence of the week, for me.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Why? She IS a male person. Yes she has had surgeries and such to resemble a woman but she is still male. And you cannot undo 50 years of male social conditioning.

I reckon if she just st fu for a bit about her transition and being male, people would actually maybe see her as a woman. But whilst shes constantly going on about it and...dare I say acting like a male person...a lot of people will see her as a male person. Compared to the likes of Nadia and Luke A...who barely spoke about it and for them it seemed being trans was a small part of who they are, whilst being trans seems to be ALL India is.

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).

Originally Posted by Livia

India keeps talking about when she was a man and (and I say this with no insult intended) she looks like a man and dresses like a teenage girl.

I think that by putting India in the house they've set back the Trans community a couple of years. I've seen trans women on TV before, and I've met a few in real life, worked with one even, and I have never in my life seen someone so self-centred and ready to be a victim as India. Shame... it might have been a good experience, like it was when Luke A won. He was a good ambassador the the trans community, I think.

I don't really buy the "ambassador for the _____ community" stuff, really, and not sure why she should be an example of how to treat and view everyone else inside it. If it's set them back then that's because people are viewing them all as the same The only community she's really set back imo is the "narcissistic crybaby" community, and thankfully that's just This Morning guests.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).

Well being insecure is not what makes India male. Biology is what makes India male. And India constantly going on about being male (and acting male) is why others are seeing India as male rather than as a woman.

I just said in admin actually that its quite unnerving for me this year as with Luke and Nadia I did see them as the sex they wanted to be...but with India I just do not at all. Not sure if its because India passes so badly, or Indias attitude/behaviour (like a typical male..sorry but no woman would be creaming her breasts infront of others and stating that breasts are just like an arm) or what but generally I do see fully transitioned transsexuals as the sex they wish they were. Or if its because my eyes have been opened to the behavior of extreme transactivists fairly recently which has changed my opinion on the whole topic almost completely. Whatever it is, I don't like it at all :S

I don't think gay people are a relevant comparison here. Do people treat gay people differently on whether they are out or not? In the same extreme way that women and men are treat differently from birth?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).



I don't really buy the "ambassador for the _____ community" stuff, really, and not sure why she should be an example of how to treat and view everyone else inside it. If it's set them back then that's because people are viewing them all as the same The only community she's really set back imo is the "narcissistic crybaby" community, and thankfully that's just This Morning guests.

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

Yes, you put it much better than me

[tanussa]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

FFS give me a break!!!! . Women get called male insults all the time and this isn't the first time in BB history .

You're basically clutching at straws and you're falling for India's victim card .

you took the words out of my mouth

[GreenIce]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

And married a woman and fathered a son. So was India a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body back then and now she's a straight woman?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GreenIce

And married a woman and fathered a son. So was India a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body back then and now she's a straight woman?

Well that's a different point entirely to what I was trying to make. I guess people live lies alot when trying to hide stuff

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well being insecure is not what makes India male. Biology is what makes India male. And India constantly going on about being male (and acting male) is why others are seeing India as male rather than as a woman.

I just said in admin actually that its quite unnerving for me this year as with Luke and Nadia I did see them as the sex they wanted to be...but with India I just do not at all. Not sure if its because India passes so badly, or Indias attitude/behaviour (like a typical male..sorry but no woman would be creaming her breasts infront of others and stating that breasts are just like an arm) or what but generally I do see fully transitioned transsexuals as the sex they wish they were. Or if its because my eyes have been opened to the behavior of extreme transactivists fairly recently which has changed my opinion on the whole topic almost completely. Whatever it is, I don't like it at all :S

I don't think gay people are a relevant comparison here. Do people treat gay people differently on whether they are out or not? In the same extreme way that women and men are treat differently from birth?

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with ) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving )

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive ) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

It does have a large influence over who you socialise with and feel comfortable with, though, which is why I suggested it - the enforcement of heterosexuality as the norm does also have a demoralising effect. Without even taking into consideration the legality aspect (it would've been decriminalised the year she was born so not TOO important I guess lol, but still recent history), it's an example of how the idea of masculinity and male privilege isn't as all-encompassing as it may be seen as, if it's not including queer/trans people.

I'll concede though that I know nothing of the female struggle so I'm trying my best not to mansplain my point is just that there are times when "male privilege" doesn't feel that powerful (and I admit, there are many times when it's taken for granted and not noticed)

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GreenIce

And married a woman and fathered a son. So was India a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body back then and now she's a straight woman?

Its not really any different to gay people marrying women (or men in the cases of lesbians...not sure if thats as common though) and having kids. India was a gay man not admitting to themselves about being gay, or purposely hiding it...

Or India is and always was bi. As sexuality does not just change like that..surely That would kind of imply its a choice, and I am sure many people would disagree with that. I know I disagree that sexuality is a choice, which is why I have no issues at all with Genuwine not wanting to shag a male person, as a straight man.

I am kind of uncomfortable talking in depth about someone elses sexuality tbh. Only India knows this for sure.

[ethanjames]

honestly I call people regardless of the gender they identify as pricks or dickheads idk why anyone would be debating

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with ) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving )

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive ) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.



It does have a large influence over who you socialise with and feel comfortable with, though, which is why I suggested it - the enforcement of heterosexuality as the norm does also have a demoralising effect. Without even taking into consideration the legality aspect (it would've been decriminalised the year she was born so not TOO important I guess lol, but still recent history), it's an example of how the idea of masculinity and male privilege isn't as all-encompassing as it may be seen as, if it's not including queer/trans people.

I'll concede though that I know nothing of the female struggle so I'm trying my best not to mansplain my point is just that there are times when "male privilege" doesn't feel that powerful (and I admit, there are many times when it's taken for granted and not noticed)

I'm not taking it as mansplaining I think we're each looking at it it from our own experiences which will be totally different but that in itself kind shows what I mean (or else I've just confused you even more, one or the other)

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with ) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving )

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive ) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.

I guess thats a fair point. I did have issues taking Kellies transition seriously...not helped by the first thing Kellie did in the house was trying to get Audley to say something transphobic I loved Audley just being so...'whatever' about it all. Another reason I had problems accepting Kellie 'as a woman' was her blaming every bad thing about her personality on Frank. She blamed trying to kill her wife on Frank and said Kellie is a different person...no. Kellie IS frank. Also Kellie from what I remember squared up to a woman...which made me think 'man', just the way it was done. Kellie brought up Frank on a regular basis. So again, Kellie was one who acted like a male person and constantly brought up her 'alter ego' I am sure she called it :S

Even with all of this said though, I admit I did not see Kellie as a woman, but not quite to the extent that I am having problems accepting India as a woman.

And yes, India is misogynistic. Which does not help in trying to see her 'as a woman'. I know some women are misogynistic, but it just shows more from a male person I think

[Vicky.]

And no, you are not mansplaining This is a really interesting conversation to me actually. Its great to disagree so much, but in a civil way rather than throwing 'isms' and 'phobia' about. Kind of like Shane disagreeing with Ann about the gay rights thing the other day. Adults should be able to discuss things without trying to shut the other down IMO. Dialogue is very much needed