[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Shaun

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).

Well being insecure is not what makes India male. Biology is what makes India male. And India constantly going on about being male (and acting male) is why others are seeing India as male rather than as a woman.

I just said in admin actually that its quite unnerving for me this year as with Luke and Nadia I did see them as the sex they wanted to be...but with India I just do not at all. Not sure if its because India passes so badly, or Indias attitude/behaviour (like a typical male..sorry but no woman would be creaming her breasts infront of others and stating that breasts are just like an arm) or what but generally I do see fully transitioned transsexuals as the sex they wish they were. Or if its because my eyes have been opened to the behavior of extreme transactivists fairly recently which has changed my opinion on the whole topic almost completely. Whatever it is, I don't like it at all :S

I don't think gay people are a relevant comparison here. Do people treat gay people differently on whether they are out or not? In the same extreme way that women and men are treat differently from birth?