[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well being insecure is not what makes India male. Biology is what makes India male. And India constantly going on about being male (and acting male) is why others are seeing India as male rather than as a woman.

I just said in admin actually that its quite unnerving for me this year as with Luke and Nadia I did see them as the sex they wanted to be...but with India I just do not at all. Not sure if its because India passes so badly, or Indias attitude/behaviour (like a typical male..sorry but no woman would be creaming her breasts infront of others and stating that breasts are just like an arm) or what but generally I do see fully transitioned transsexuals as the sex they wish they were. Or if its because my eyes have been opened to the behavior of extreme transactivists fairly recently which has changed my opinion on the whole topic almost completely. Whatever it is, I don't like it at all :S

I don't think gay people are a relevant comparison here. Do people treat gay people differently on whether they are out or not? In the same extreme way that women and men are treat differently from birth?

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with ) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving )

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive ) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

It does have a large influence over who you socialise with and feel comfortable with, though, which is why I suggested it - the enforcement of heterosexuality as the norm does also have a demoralising effect. Without even taking into consideration the legality aspect (it would've been decriminalised the year she was born so not TOO important I guess lol, but still recent history), it's an example of how the idea of masculinity and male privilege isn't as all-encompassing as it may be seen as, if it's not including queer/trans people.

I'll concede though that I know nothing of the female struggle so I'm trying my best not to mansplain my point is just that there are times when "male privilege" doesn't feel that powerful (and I admit, there are many times when it's taken for granted and not noticed)