[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I'm sorry Kizzy but I respectfully disagree. I can see that you're criticising the 'people aren't being honest' argument and that's fine...but that's Toy Soldier's ballgame and not mine. From my experience and/or (more often) observation, there have been on occasions (not necessarily in this thread or in recent ones since people have started airing their concerns) in the last year or so, many instances of male voices having their opinions denigrated and validity called into question based on their sex. Often in a snide, indirect and baiting manner too. It's not helpful and is not conducive to a productive debate, or a debate at all for that matter.



No, I get that totally. Hence why on several occasions I've qualified my point by saying that my personal stake in this topic is obviously COMPLETELY different to that of a female's lived experience. But it's still a personal stake, just from a different angle - that's all my point was.



I'm not sure I understand this bit. I completely agree that feeling afraid to be honest about my genuine opinions is not conducive to civilised and reasoned debate! But I don't think I've suggested that the rest of the forum should? I think you're getting mine and TS' line of arguments mixed up here, I didn't make the point that people aren't being honest...he did. I was coming at it from a different angle.



I'm glad we agree on this however!

With respect I can't help but get your views tangled as you highlighted his views as relevant and they do seem to chime with your own on this, they aren't a million miles apart.
That's not to say I agree however, I can't think of one thread where a male opinion has been denigrated or deemed irrelevant. I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't work both ways even should you feel that, in all seriousness feminism isn't exactly the forte of some of the male regular members of this forum... That's not a snipe by the way that's an observation.

I'm not saying your angle is lesser ( I know you didn't say this, but I don't want my wording misconstrued) than mine as you say just different, my angle is different again from someone who has felt that fear, it's not specific to my gender to empathise with the abused. We have to appreciate that there has to be some rights afforded to them too. Which is why I felt the unisex option alongside the existing facilities had to be the most inclusive option.

You understood me well enough that's more or less what I was trying to say, aside from I meant the rest of the forum should remain civilised while speaking their minds. You remain civilised while not speaking your mind which is easy to do... some are being accused of speaking their mind whilst not being honest and still managing to come over as offensive. I appreciate that is not your view.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I made one for you and marsh.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1mJOMqZrdHQ

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Dumbledore getting it on with Voldemort could have made deathly hallows part 1 a little more interesting, I must say.

I love that one!

DON'T COME TO HER!!!

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i will never buy another one of Harry Potters books in protest of this outrage

But if you already bought them why would you buy them again.

Unless you're still on book 1. Catch up slow coach.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I wouldn't mind joining a campaign for proper contained unisex facilities. However I can fight against opening our current (pitiful) areas up to being unisex at the same time

I think you may find though, that transactivists are very very much against this idea as a compromise. They do not think that there should be any compromise as 'transwomen are women!!!111' and that women who object to male people in their spaces are just transphobic bigots who are no better than nazis and deserve to be punched And its transactivists/trans pressure groups who are influencing political parties on this.



Well this is why I do not think that anyones birth certificate should be changed (unless they are actually intersex, which is bugger all to do with trans)

A refuge could not ask for ID in every case, granted...but again its usually extremely easy to tell what sex someone is. And honestly, if someone is trans and actually passes, theres really not that much that can be done about it if they insist on deceiving people when the service is designated for single SEX

I assume prisons get actual full records before you are put in one. I am very much hoping that even the ridiculous 'revised' birth certificates (which are pointless, as a birth certificate is a historical document, so quite why people as adults can change them to say the opposite sex, I don't know) there is some kind of record somewhere. if not that would be rather dangerous really. But single sex is a hell of a lot easier to actually stick to in prisons. I would guess that the strip searching and such would end any questions...if for some reason prisons are not in full possession of all data about you.

I think a trans wing, or two up and down the country would suffice, for those who are in transition. Or you know, better security in prisons anyway, which would keep all safer, even gender non conforming males.



The logical conclusion of having services that are actually based on sex would mean that all trans people had to have surgery?

You seem to be using transsexual but talking about transgender. Its not the term I object to, its this whole...oh I am trans but do not actually have sex dysphoria and will not modify any part of myself but will insist I am actually a woman rubbish...along with crossdressers and such being under the 'umbrella'
Maybe there can be a campaign aimed at stopping men from committing violence or abusing other male people who do not fit 'gendered expectations' or follow the correct stereotypes?


And people do not percieve one another on 'gender presentation'...they can generally tell regardless of 'gender presentation' (ie. stereotypes followed) what sex someone is.

Any male person being able to access (current) female areas. Thats my objection.




The fact that any man, not just transsexual women would be able to access female spaces.

..it’s funny because (..some ..)..trans activists..the ones who would oppose and not be open to a compromise, as you say Vicky....They’re dismissing the vulnerabilities of ‘woman’...that ‘woman’ exists as an entirety of their vulnerabilities also through their gender...which seems to be the ‘sticky point’ as it were atm...I’m not sure we’ve ever had proposed legislation concerning two vulnerables in society before...maybe there has been, I can’t think...


...anyways I don’t think there has been any double standards in this topic...I think standards have been flexible because that’s been necessary to be so with ‘one size never fits all’....and labelling of terminology would be so restrictive in gaining understanding of something which is so recent in its recognition in society...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I made one for you and marsh.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1mJOMqZrdHQ

I'm learning all the time.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i will never buy another one of Harry Potters books in protest of this outrage

Originally Posted by Marsh.

But if you already bought them why would you buy them again.

Unless you're still on book 1. Catch up slow coach.

Sorry, I meant the Hairy Bikers

I will never buy another of their transphoblic cookbooks eva again

[GoldHeart]

I doubt JK meant any offense . I wish people would calm down ,there's far worse that gets liked and retweeted .

[Vicky.]

For jack, when he comes back on...as I doubt anyone else will read it and my conversation was actually with him I also know jack will not just disregard it as its from a feminist site like some would.

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/...nder-identity/

Its long, but explains quite how women who speak up about any of this are treat by transactivists. Its not a comprehensive list (nor does it mention the actual physical violence), but should explain a lot..especially if you have never seen such behaviour. Its a very large issue in the Labour party right now, which the article touches upon.

*I should maybe say that its not ALL transactivists who behave like this, but it seems to be a very significant amount and it is every single one I have ever came across (not that I come across them as such, they come to me, threatening my life and my children)

[user104658]

It's an issue that's clearly infused with a lot of anger and emotion on both sides and I think what you're experiencing is "severe backlash", which of course doesn't make it excusable but I personally believe that it always helps to remember that it's usually borne of frustration. Strangely though, the article insists that the threats are received because of "wanting debate" on this issue but then, does anyone actually "want debate"? My experience of it, including this thread, is that people are not really "open to debate" on the issue at all and what they are infact asking for is not a debate, but a platform, and debate is actively discouraged or shot down with arbitrary "gotchas".

Frustration / anger / violence is the inevitable outcome of excluding free, open and emotionally stable academic discussion of any issue.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's an issue that's clearly infused with a lot of anger and emotion on both sides and I think what you're experiencing is "severe backlash", which of course doesn't make it excusable but I personally believe that it always helps to remember that it's usually borne of frustration. Strangely though, the article insists that the threats are received because of "wanting debate" on this issue but then, does anyone actually "want debate"? My experience of it, including this thread, is that people are not really "open to debate" on the issue at all and what they are infact asking for is not a debate, but a platform, and debate is actively discouraged or shot down with arbitrary "gotchas".

Frustration / anger / violence is the inevitable outcome of excluding free, open and emotionally stable academic discussion of any issue.

Really? I honestly thought of any of the subjects discussed in SDs, this one has gone pretty well in general. People have for the most part listened to eachothers POVs and posted very well thought out and researched arguments

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's an issue that's clearly infused with a lot of anger and emotion on both sides and I think what you're experiencing is "severe backlash", which of course doesn't make it excusable but I personally believe that it always helps to remember that it's usually borne of frustration. Strangely though, the article insists that the threats are received because of "wanting debate" on this issue but then, does anyone actually "want debate"? My experience of it, including this thread, is that people are not really "open to debate" on the issue at all and what they are infact asking for is not a debate, but a platform, and debate is actively discouraged or shot down with arbitrary "gotchas".

Frustration / anger / violence is the inevitable outcome of excluding free, open and emotionally stable academic discussion of any issue.

Odd because I had a very interesting amiable debate with Jack yesterday, it seems we are in agreement as to the best outcome for the trans community on one of the main issues, have you ever thought it might not be everyone else but yourself with the problem?

If you wren't so hostile and accusatory you wouldn't be feeling so misunderstood.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Odd because I had a very interesting amiable debate with Jack yesterday, it seems we are in agreement as to the best outcome for the trans community on one of the main issues, have you ever thought it might not be everyone else but yourself with the problem?

If you wren't so hostile and accusatory you wouldn't be feeling so misunderstood.

I think you make a fair point here Kizzy.

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Really? I honestly thought of any of the subjects discussed in SDs, this one has gone pretty well in general. People have for the most part listened to eachothers POVs and posted very well thought out and researched arguments

I would agree with this, I feel like TS and I are reading a different thread.

Then again he demonised me in it without showing me where I said he couldn't comment so IDK.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I doubt JK meant any offense . I wish people would calm down ,there's far worse that gets liked and retweeted .

well said

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Really? I honestly thought of any of the subjects discussed in SDs, this one has gone pretty well in general. People have for the most part listened to eachothers POVs and posted very well thought out and researched arguments

Of course discussions go well when people more or less all agree with each other and stick to the supposed hierarchy of opinion validity... as far as I'm aware, there are no male to female transexuals on this forum to become frustrated with the fairly one-sided rhetoric? So we have absolutely no idea how "the other people" actually affected by this would feel about this (ahem) "debate"... and those are the people who are being described in the link that Vicky has given. Yes, there will be an extreme element, but for the mostpart, those are the people I am talking about. People who are marginalised act out of fear and anger. You only need to read this thread to see why they might feel marginalised.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I would agree with this, I feel like TS and I are reading a different thread.

Or we're reading exactly the same thread but from different perspectives, and you're making the error of assuming that your perspective is the only one that's valid. Or I suppose I should clarify; "more valid", since I'm being lambasted for saying that I'm "not allowed an opinion" or that my "opinion isn't valid" - which is in fact not what I have said at any point - I have commented and complained on the idea that there is a hierarchy where some opinions apparently carry more weight than others for arbitrary reasons, and that I completely disagree with that notion. I'm sure this objection will be ignored again, however, and the convenient line that I "mistakenly think I'm not allowed any opinion" will continue to be used.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Or we're reading exactly the same thread but from different perspectives, and you're making the error of assuming that your perspective is the only one that's valid. Or I suppose I should clarify; "more valid", since I'm being lambasted for saying that I'm "not allowed an opinion" or that my "opinion isn't valid" - which is in fact not what I have said at any point - I have commented and complained on the idea that there is a hierarchy where some opinions apparently carry more weight than others for arbitrary reasons, and that I completely disagree with that notion. I'm sure this objection will be ignored again, however, and the convenient line that I "mistakenly think I'm not allowed any opinion" will continue to be used.

Fair enough you feel you are being moderated unfairly. So now can you explain why you picked out me, Cherie and Brillo as some sort of villains?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Really? I honestly thought of any of the subjects discussed in SDs, this one has gone pretty well in general. People have for the most part listened to eachothers POVs and posted very well thought out and researched arguments

Indeed.

Again, like kizzy yesterday I had a pretty decent discussion on the topic with jack

And yes, threats are recieved because of wanting debate. But apparently the topic is #nodebate. So trying to talk about the issue, beyond parroting the cultlike chant of 'transwomen are women' results in abuse, threats and actual violence.

Of course people are free to hold the belief that transwomen are women. But thats very different to transactivists way of 'debating'. Every single thing is shouted down as bigoted. Even asking questions results in threats and cries of bigot. Their approach is so wrong its laughable really. They are alienating people who would otherwise be allies. I mean, I have absolutely nothing at all against people being transsexual, nor people being 'gender noncomforning' (hell I think everyone is gender nonconforming as noone is a walking stereotype) and would fight alongside transpeople for their own spaces and for the right to live free of violence and such. I think many of the issue transpeople face are similar to the issues faced by women. However I just will not say that transwomen and women are the same thing, they clearly are not.

I came properly to this topic in a rather odd way. I had heard a story about a transactivist who was causing issues. I like others assumed this was just a random nutter. If you look back over my past posts on this topic (except for the past year or so, since my eyes were opened to the dark side of all of this) I was 100% supportive of 'trans rights'. I asked why transvestites felt the need to use womens spaces. And I got in return and absolute barrage of abuse, calling me transphobic, ****, bitch, along with pretty much every sex specific insult known to man. This is when I realised that trans and transsexual were not classed as one and the same. I then read up a lot more on everything and it did disturb me. Then came the selfID thing, and I realised that the only people selfID would actually help are the likes of the transvestites and pisstaking predators. I read a lot about how selfID first came to be a serious suggestion, and it turned out that Maria Miller had basically, ignored all other groups and only taken into account the views of trans pressure groups. I realised that there were proposals to remove the existing exemptions in the GRA (the likes of prisons and such), oddly enough though, the primogeniture exemption was likely to remain.

The primogeniture clause is the only way transmen could benefit from self ID. However, an older sister becoming 'legally a man' cannot inherit instead of her younger brother. As apparently women would abuse it. But, we are expected to believe that no man would abuse selfID for his own purposes. So yet again, women would abuse something but men would not,

Thats when the penny started dropping that the movement was inherently sexist. I had suspicions due to the behaviour of transactivists (who are usually male, and pretty young) but the fact that noone seemed to be fighting to get rid of this 'transphobic' exemption along with the ones that would benefit men...well... if we are expected to believe that you can just change sex by ticking a box, then surely the same should go for FtM people?

The movement is entirely about male people. I suspect this is how it has come so far in such a short space of time. That along with attaching itself to LBG rights. However, so many on the trans side are so ****ing homophobic its unbelievable. I have mentioned the cotton ceiling before. When I had my eyes opened on this topic I actually spoke to a few lesbian friends about it all and it turned out each of them had had abuse, sometimes physical, because of this whole 'lesbians must be attracted to male bodied people who say they are women' rubbish. So its really really not just a fringe group online, its affecting the lives of actual real lesbians as we speak.

Have posted one of these links before, but they are well worth a read (I know I post a lot of mumsnet links, but mumsnet is pretty much the only place where actual honest debate on the topic is allowed. Any actual transphobia is deleted swiftly though, as it should be)

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_...bian-community

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_...e-Trans-debate

The second links to a video by a lesbian woman who was kicked out of her uni support group for saying that she was not attracted to male people.

Lesbians are also under intense pressure from transactivists to just 'come out' as transmen. Record numbers of young girls are somehow being convinced they are trans, and turning up at gender clinics. Thousands now. But it turns out only a few of them (I believe its 100 or so) actually have sex dysphoria. Something is going massively wrong here, and its really not being helped by pressure groups such as mermaids going into primary schools to tell children that they can change sex and that stereotypes are basically more important than your sexed body.

https://twitter.com/LilyLilyMaynard/...25968458321920

This is the kind of rubbish Mermaids spout. Barbie to GI Joe indeed.


I may have gone into total waffle by now but I could literally type on this subject for hours and hours the amount I have read on it all.

But yes, I want a bloody debate on it all. I like hearing different views, you cannot debate without them afterall. I want actual women and feminist groups to be consulted on this law change, rather than just trans groups, given it will affect women more than anyone else. Hell I want mens groups involved in teh debate too. Everyone, not just trans groups...it does not just affect trans people, it will effect everyone to varying degrees, but primarily women

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

This^ Is what I want. Yet thats considered transphobic too, to think anyone else besides trans groups should be consulted ffs.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Of course discussions go well when people more or less all agree with each other and stick to the supposed hierarchy of opinion validity... as far as I'm aware, there are no male to female transexuals on this forum to become frustrated with the fairly one-sided rhetoric? So we have absolutely no idea how "the other people" actually affected by this would feel about this (ahem) "debate"... and those are the people who are being described in the link that Vicky has given. Yes, there will be an extreme element, but for the mostpart, those are the people I am talking about. People who are marginalised act out of fear and anger. You only need to read this thread to see why they might feel marginalised.

So they are going well or they're not? My post was in response to you saying that they weren't but now you're saying the total opposite.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I didn't intend to single you out personally so i cant point you to where you have done this but there is the other trans based thread where I put this across the other day.

There is a double standard across the forum.

and I didn't say your opinion was unwelcome on there either, it really isn't my style. TS has a very sly habit of lumping certain posters together so as to dilute their opinions, I didn't agree with Jaxie or Brillo or quote any of their posts in this thread, the only post I interacted with Brillo was when I thanked her for acknowledging a post that was ignored, every single female on this thread has more or less the same view on this topic it's quite strange that he has managed to read something into just our posts that no one else on the thread has seen

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So they are going well or they're not? My post was in response to you saying that they weren't but now you're saying the total opposite.

The discussion went well because it was a discussion amongst like-minded people, and at the very most one person (Jack) who was taking a more or less neutral stance. Why would that discussion not go well? It wasn't a debate and any significant diversion from the status quo was made very quickly unwelcome. Again, it was NOT a debate, and debate on this subject is NOT welcome.

Vis a vis; I can only imagine how this thread would have gone if, say, 5 male to female transexuals had appeared and gotten involved. I'm going to hazard a guess at "lol, not well."

[Vicky.]

Ontop of that (rather large post) of course I realize that there are many transsexual people just wanting to live out their lives in peace. I think its a massive shame that it seems they may be collateral damage in a fight brought by the very people who claim to fight FOR them (who actually call transsexual people truscum) and again, I feel I should state that these people are not a problem, at all. Its transactivists and 'transgender' types who are all mememememe and seemingly just want to trample over the things women have managed to carve out for themselves. See as an example, Lily Madigan. Check out lilys twitter feed for their attitude towards women (or even try asking Lily a question such as 'what are you planning on doing for women in your post', you will be blocked immediately), whilst taking the position of womens officer as a 19 year old male (now 20) after bullying another woman out of her post. I think the fact that the entire board quit in protest shows that the woman was not in the wrong too.

The behaviour of many transactivists is bringing hostility on the entire movement. Yet they continue. I suspect the reason for this is that many transactivists do not actually give a **** about transsexual people, or women, they are mens rights activists. Maybe the incel type, given the narcisism and misogyny they spout and the way they only attack women for speaking out. men are free to speak out without abuse, but god forbid a woman speaks her mind or even asks questions that they deem inappropriate.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The discussion went well because it was a discussion amongst like-minded people, and at the very most one person (Jack) who was taking a more or less neutral stance. Why would that discussion not go well? It wasn't a debate and any significant diversion from the status quo was made very quickly unwelcome. Again, it was NOT a debate, and debate on this subject is NOT welcome.

Vis a vis; I can only imagine how this thread would have gone if, say, 5 male to female transexuals had appeared and gotten involved. I'm going to hazard a guess at "lol, not well."

Well tbf the main "diversion from the status quo" was you accusing people of not really caring about womens rights and only pretending to, to hide the inner transphobe, did you just expect people to nod and agree with that or....?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The behaviour of many transactivists is bringing hostility on the entire movement. Yet they continue. I suspect the reason for this is that many transactivists do not actually give a **** about transsexual people, or women, they are mens rights activists. Maybe the incel type, given the narcisism and misogyny they spout and the way they only attack women for speaking out. men are free to speak out without abuse, but god forbid a woman speaks her mind or even asks questions that they deem inappropriate.

I'm not going to deny that this is clearly true; but it baffles me that you can clearly see this and not acknowledge that the flipside (largely, female and active feminists) is equally true. Trying to paint a picture where all reasonable, rational women's rights activists are attacked "out of the blue" by activists on the flipside is a complete (deliberate?) misrepresentation. And whilst yes, I'm sure there ARE many reasonable, rational women's rights activists who get caught in the angry crossfire (just as you point out transpeople who just want to get on with it are)... this completely overlooks the fact that it "takes two to tango", so to speak, and there isn't "entirely unprompted" lashing out on either side.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not going to deny that this is clearly true; but it baffles me that you can clearly see this and not acknowledge that the flipside (largely, female and active feminists) is equally true. Trying to paint a picture where all reasonable, rational women's rights activists are attacked "out of the blue" by activists on the flipside is a complete (deliberate?) misrepresentation. And whilst yes, I'm sure there ARE many reasonable, rational women's rights activists who get caught in the angry crossfire (just as you point out transpeople who just want to get on with it are)... this completely overlooks the fact that it "takes two to tango", so to speak, and there isn't "entirely unprompted" lashing out on either side.

But there is.

And womens rights activists ARE being attacked for simply attending meetings to speak about the changes and such.

I know you wouldn't want to believe that though.

Its not a misrepresentation. The most womens rights activists have done in this fight is argue their POV, attend meetings and identify as men on fridays to show selfID up for the rubbish it is.