[Shasown]

So going by the arguments against women wearing the burka because the nasty man of the house made them cover up, if the burka is banned doesnt it just mean same nasty man will keep the woman indoors and send young (as in of pre burka wearing age) girls out to do the shopping etc?

So by banning the burka we create domestic prisoners. An ideal solution to misogynistic religious practices.

Education not legislation.

[Zippy]

these women do not choose to wear this from a neutral standpoint. They do so because its been drummed into them from birth that they should be hidden away.

well that message is abhorent and a civilised country should be intolerant towards it.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

Ah, well, that's OK then.......

Can you start responding to the whole of posts please? Instead of just addressing one bolded line?

As I said directly before that bit, you are going by a presumption and a mass generalisation. You're basically saying that woman are not capable of making this decision for themselves and if they do make a choice to wear one, they must be oppressed, and been forced into doing so. Some Jews maybe get forced to wear the kippah by their parents, should that now be banned?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Shasown

So going by the arguments against women wearing the burka because the nasty man of the house made them cover up, if the burka is banned doesnt it just mean same nasty man will keep the woman indoors and send young (as in of pre burka wearing age) girls out to do the shopping etc?

So by banning the burka we create domestic prisoners. An ideal solution to misogynistic religious practices.

Education not legislation.

Yeah that's a good point

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Can you start responding to the whole of posts please? Instead of just addressing one bolded line?

As I said directly before that bit, you are going by a presumption and a mass generalisation. You're basically saying that woman are not capable of making this decision for themselves and if they do make a choice to wear one, they must be oppressed, and been forced into doing so. Some Jews maybe get forced to wear the kippah by their parents, should that now be banned?

No, because it's not gender specific and it's not a direct reference to the demand for subservience from women.
Again, where, exactly, did I say that the women aren't "capable" of making the decision. Of course they're capable. They're societally oppressed, religiously oppressed and, sadly, oppressed by every male in their household. The wearing of a burkha is the surrender of the spirit, and I really feel sad and sorry for anyone who won't or can't see that.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But that goes back to the point about tarring all of them with the same brush, creating the image that all burkha wearers must really be oppressed females who have been forced to wear this garment and just havent realised it yet..

To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Shasown

So going by the arguments against women wearing the burka because the nasty man of the house made them cover up, if the burka is banned doesnt it just mean same nasty man will keep the woman indoors and send young (as in of pre burka wearing age) girls out to do the shopping etc?

So by banning the burka we create domestic prisoners. An ideal solution to misogynistic religious practices.

Education not legislation.

The acceptance of a visual representation of gender oppression is a tacit nod of approval for that attitude and the practices associated with it.

[InOne]

There would be too much uproar in the UK if it happened. And would just give extremists an excuse for another attack,

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by happyland

To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?

Absolutely spot on.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Can you start responding to the whole of posts please? Instead of just addressing one bolded line?

As I said directly before that bit, you are going by a presumption and a mass generalisation. You're basically saying that woman are not capable of making this decision for themselves and if they do make a choice to wear one, they must be oppressed, and been forced into doing so. Some Jews maybe get forced to wear the kippah by their parents, should that now be banned?

Jews don't treat the female sex as something of lesser value than a man

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by InOne

There would be too much uproar in the UK if it happened. And would just give extremists an excuse for another attack,

Sadly, this is true. But it's a terrible thing that the rights of swathes of young girls have to be sacrificed to maintain what is already a very fragile peace.

[Crimson Dynamo]

and if we ban the Burkah then we could also ban trainers

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

The acceptance of a visual representation of gender oppression is a tacit nod of approval for that attitude and the practices associated with it.

I am not denying that.

But once again you havent addressed the point in quiestion. What happens if in some cases the head of the muslim household simply confines the female who would have been allowed out in a burqa to the house?

[InOne]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

Sadly, this is true. But it's a terrible thing that the rights of swathes of young girls have to be sacrificed to maintain what is already a very fragile peace.

Well as long as it isn't affecting anyone else it doesn't matter really. It's easy to explain to a kid about it. If we tried to intervene or anything we'd only get abuse, so just let them get on with it.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

No, because it's not gender specific and it's not a direct reference to the demand for subservience from women.
Again, where, exactly, did I say that the women aren't "capable" of making the decision. Of course they're capable. They're societally oppressed, religiously oppressed and, sadly, oppressed by every male in their household. The wearing of a burkha is the surrender of the spirit, and I really feel sad and sorry for anyone who won't or can't see that.

It might not be gender exclusive but it is usually worn by Jewish men and not Jewish woman

And by banning the burkha clearly you are saying they are not capable of making the decision for themselves. You are trying to impose your views on other people, in a sense you are oppressing them by refusing to allow them to wear something they consider essential to their religion.

Originally Posted by happyland

To be honest.. to bring a girl up with the belief that she must cover herself from head to foot IS oppresion. Many aren't forced but just accept it, as this has always been their way. But whether they feel forced or wear one willingly or not, surely the whole thing just symbolises oppresion in it's purest form? something which , in our civilised world should not be encouraged?

I dont think it's necessarily a symbol of repression and whether you do or do not is subjective really. A willing wearer of the burkha might think it brings them closer to God, and it is their way of expressing their faith. Personally I dont understand it but touching on the point of living in a civilised society, I think we should be tolerant and respectful of others beliefs. If it is considered of extreme importance to them then they can go ahead and wear it in my eyes.

[Shasown]

Nuns habits next on the list?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by happyland

These women don't know what liberty is though.. They don't know any better and are never ever free to make their own choices. From birth they are merely know as a daughter of such and such or the wife of such and such.
Most have "masters" all their lives

Sorry but I think that's patronising as hell, not all muslims are like what you read in the newspapers or watch on the TV and it annoys me when people think that. It's a stereotype based on the minority rather then a majority.

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

BIB 1. How and why is that hypocritical. Of course it's an issue about gender and the oppression of women by men. What the hell else would it be about?
BIB 2. See now, that's just ridiculous. Where did I say that? Oppression equates to domestic violence. Of course it does. Try responding to what's written instead of what you'd like me to have written.
BIB 3. But they don't have that liberty. That's the problem.

Again it's patronising to assume that all muslim women are downtrodden and meek, It reminds me of a friend I had in college that wore a version of the Burkha at times It wasn't quite the letterbox version but it was close and she chewed my ear off once for even suggesting that she was victimised into wearing it.

I'm not denying it doesn't happen though but to ban it is a blanket solution to a specific problem and in the long run it won't help the victims as they'll still be abused, they'll just have more freeing clothes to suffer in. Banning a big piece of fabric won't do achieve anything if you want to stop the violence. You've got to tackle the problem at it's core and individually.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by happyland

Jews don't treat the female sex as something of lesser value than a man

But Jews still emphasise modesty among females, a lot of married Jewish women will cover their hair

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Nuns habits next on the list?

yes

except for stripograms

[Niamh.]

I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.

Yes the New Way.

In Your Face.

And Andy (novo) is having a week off.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Some Jews maybe get forced to wear the kippah by their parents, should that now be banned?

are you seriously trying to compare a small round cap attached to the crown to a full head/face/body cover up?

they have totally different significance. And certainly send out totally different messages.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I see the Burka as a symbol of oppression, and to be quite honest I applaud Germany and France for banning it. It's backward and demeaning to women, If they don't like it then don't go to those countries.

What about a British Muslim woman who feels the burkha is an important part of her religion, why should she be denied the freedom to do so because some people are hung-up on the possible symbolism of it?

It's not always been the case that it has symbolised oppression either, back in the 19th centure it became a way of rejecting and resisting British colonialism, and asserting themselves and their religion

[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It might not be gender exclusive but it is usually worn by Jewish men and not Jewish woman

And by banning the burkha clearly you are saying they are not capable of making the decision for themselves. You are trying to impose your views on other people, in a sense you are oppressing them by refusing to allow them to wear something they consider essential to their religion.



I dont think it's necessarily a symbol of repression and whether you do or do not is subjective really. A willing wearer of the burkha might think it brings them closer to God, and it is their way of expressing their faith. Personally I dont understand it but touching on the point of living in a civilised society, I think we should be tolerant and respectful of others beliefs. If it is considered of extreme importance to them then they can go ahead and wear it in my eyes.

You do realise that's straight out of the Book of Fundamentalist Justifications, don't you?
An dangerous and highly inaccurate argument - in my opinion.
We should be more respectful of rights and equality than of beliefs.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Zippy

are you seriously trying to compare a small round cap attached to the crown to a full head/face/body cover up?

they have totally different significance. And certainly send out totally different messages.

In a sense they are similar. Neither are religious requirements but some consider them to be important to their religion. The kippah may also be a way of protecting modesty, the burkha is intended to do the same although admittedly takes it to a much greater extent.