[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Joey, can you reproduce on here just WHERE the OFFICIAL UKIP Party line is that immigration is to blame for ALL the UK's ills - as you and other Labourite's keep claiming?

Can you reproduce where Joey suggested they were to blame for ALL the UKs ills?

He said most, and he's not far wrong there is he?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Can you reproduce where Joey suggested they were to blame for ALL the UKs ills?

He said most, and he's not far wrong there is he?

farage isn't blaming the immigrants hes blaming the eu and the politicians for allowing such enormous net migration

your leftists pals are mostly to blame for trying to ban free speech on the matter....im amazed you ever quote orwell hed have been disgusted by the new labour thought police and their mass censorship and perversion of the English language,,,,,their best tactic was anyone who disagrees with them gets labelled a sexist or a racist or a bigot....new labour were the spawn of satan. evil evil people spinning lies and wages illegal wars against millions of impoverished people

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Can you reproduce where Joey suggested they were to blame for ALL the UKs ills?

He said most, and he's not far wrong there is he?

You aren't being clever Kizzy - not at all. I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question in a polite manner, but OK, pedantics aside, 'most' and 'just abouts' then.

And yes he IS wrong. But it is futile trying to debate that or any other subject with someone like you who constantly uses circular arguments and misrepresentations and who blindly ignores empiric irrefutable evidence which defeats her arguments to still post the same nonsense argument, and who still supports an idiot like Russell Brand despite him being clearly shown to be a total moronic buffoon, liar, and notoriously shameless 'U' Turner.

So I think I'll just wait for Joey's response thank you.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Joey, can you reproduce on here just WHERE the OFFICIAL UKIP Party line is that immigration is to blame for ALL the UK's ills - as you and other Labourite's keep claiming?

Oh come on, Nigel Farage even tried to blame being late for a meeting in Wales on immigration.

I simply do not like or support the the always negative approach UKIP takes on immigration and to me, and to others,it comes across as deliberate demonisation of immigrants.

They may have valid points,as all parties do,for me they go about it the wrong way,so I have big concerns at their real agenda, of course that is only my view, I could be wrong.
As I have said,I do not myself believe any party has the solutions or right policies as to immigration.

One thing I have to give UKIP is, absolutely they were right to point out that it should not be that anyone coming to the UK can just get benefits paid right off to them.
I also add, no way do I believe either of the main 2 parties would be even now looking at when benefits could be paid to those migrating here,had UKIP not got that at the top of the agenda.
That was a positive criticism of the system UKIP made,no doubt at all as to that.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Oh come on, Nigel Farage even tried to blame being late for a meeting in Wales on immigration.

I simply do not like or support the the always negative approach UKIP takes on immigration and to me, and to others,it comes across as deliberate demonisation of immigrants.

They may have valid points,as all parties do,for me they go about it the wrong way,so I have big concerns at their real agenda, of course that is only my view, I could be wrong.
As I have said,I do not myself believe any party has the solutions or right policies as to immigration.

One thing I have to give UKIP is, absolutely they were right to point out that it should not be that anyone coming to the UK can just get benefits paid right off to them.
I also add, no way do I believe either of the main 2 parties would be even now looking at when benefits could be paid to those migrating here,had UKIP not got that at the top of the agenda.
That was a positive criticism of the system UKIP made,no doubt at all as to that.

Thank you for responding Joey and for your fairness - especially the emboldened text.

I will agree to disagree on the rest.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

People can go on about Labour all they like, however all the treaties signed as to the EU would have been signed by Conservatives or Labour no matter who was in power and so the free movement of EU citizens would be happening regardless.

Immigration got out of hand in their time in power latterly, Labour rightly has to be blamed for that.

However, not now, this Prime Minister, foolishly in 2010, promised to cut immigration to the tens of thousands.
He failed bigtime because it is probably unachievable anyway.
That is now totally and only his govts. fault, not Labours, he doesn't even have the figures falling,as Labour did by 2010 after the peak in 2005.
That is his fault again.

The point is, yes, halt illegal immigration when you come across it, he obviously has no will to put in more resources to do so, so he will need to just hope for the best as to that.
Then make full use and nurture the success that immigration brings to the UK, where all statistics show, that the benefits of immigration to the UK far outweigh any of the negatives as to it.

Then admit, as Labour and all other parties should too, that none have the right policy as it it at all and realise that divisions as to immigration are never going to bring any solutions.
Hammer out a policy,that can be continuous, fair and welcoming as to the positives to all immigration to the UK from wherever.
Stop this we know best attitude from all parties, when in fact all they do as has been shown over the last 5 years is make things even worse.

One of the first steps all parties should also take,obviously excluding the more irrational UKIP leadership's thinking currently,is to stop right now, allowing immigration to be blamed for most of the UKs ills at present.
Take any problems there may be of immigration out of the political arena with a strong and appropriate united front to putting in place a policy as to same.

Stop allowing the demonisation of immigrants and also the nastier side too of the likes of UKIP,blaming foreign immigration for just about everything.

Labour failed on immigration, the Conservatives too failed in coalition over the last 5 years on immigration and if they really try to press ahead thinking they have all the answers to it themselves now, the Conservatives will fail badly again over the next few years too.

embarrassing post. new labour are distusting murderous lying bigots....the tories have been too slow but now that Europhile clegg is out the tories can take action.....theyre scrapping child benefits going aborad, theyre bringing in 5 yrs to qualify for benefits and paying in national insurance, theyre bringing in a eu referendum, theyre tergetting illegal immigrants harder than ever.....they realise now how out of contro, this is....a city the size of Cardiff arriving on this small island every year is the road to insanity

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

embarrassing post. new labour are distusting murderous lying bigots....the tories have been too slow but now that Europhile clegg is out the tories can take action.....theyre scrapping child benefits going aborad, theyre bringing in 5 yrs to qualify for benefits and paying in national insurance, theyre bringing in a eu referendum, theyre tergetting illegal immigrants harder than ever.....they realise now how out of contro, this is....a city the size of Cardiff arriving on this small island every year is the road to insanity

I have not a thing I even want to say to you as to any topic, thank you very much.
I told you that yesterday.
The post is not embarrassing to me since I mean all I have said in it but I want no more of your nasty insults.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Not to you Josh because despite your obvious intelligence your naivety is alarming.

I don't think that I am naive at all. My area is still 96.8% white british, and yet seems to be one of the most racist and anti-immigration areas in the country.. which proves that it has everything to do with naivety, but to those who actually think we have too many immigrants. People on the local facebook page which has quite a lot of active posters on it, many have said they believe our town is only 40% white now which is very laughable.

Obviously my town is not the only one in England and so I cannot speak for everyone, but I have not yet seen a statistic in which there are more immigrants than "natives".

Originally Posted by the truth

lol what complete and utter lies....typical of the brainwash spin weve had from new labour for the past 20 years...for starters millions of net immigration directly effects the nhs the housing the poverty the welfare state the child benefits the economy everything is directly connected etc etc
as were in the eu we have no real control over our borders, weve allowed vats amounts of illegal immigrants many of whom are criminals plus we should have a points system allowing us to select who comes in

this is a total fiasco. Europe is a disaster as we see with the tens of thousands drowing at sea.....the endless European countries bankrupt, the 50%+ youth unemployment across several European nations....the EU hasn't even handed its own accounts in

ps have you actually read the eu constituton? didn't think so

how dare you or anyone from new labour call anyone racist again....the most discriminatory act in the history of this country came from new labour when they illegally murdered 1 million innocent Iraqis and they actually dare to preach about discrimination...new labour should burn in hell for eternity

I don't support New Labour at all by the way.. the new right-wing policies on immigration are very alarming to me. Also in terms of Iraq.. yes that was was disgusting and should never have happened, but it was also mostly Bush who convinced Blair (who I would like arrested) to do all of this. It was racism that led to the war also.

Originally Posted by the truth

embarrassing post. new labour are distusting murderous lying bigots....the tories have been too slow but now that Europhile clegg is out the tories can take action.....theyre scrapping child benefits going aborad, theyre bringing in 5 yrs to qualify for benefits and paying in national insurance, theyre bringing in a eu referendum, theyre tergetting illegal immigrants harder than ever.....they realise now how out of contro, this is....a city the size of Cardiff arriving on this small island every year is the road to insanity

I'll just not reply anymore if you actually think that..

[empire]

how can we clampdown on it, when we have the floodgates opened thanks to tony blair, for handing are country over to the scumbags the eussr,

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Josh, you haven't responded to my post below, but then go on to post the same fallacies in your post above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshBB

This is so awful, I can't understand how anyone can want to just leave them there.. (@ david cameron).

Seriously though when they're coming here we get tons of xenophobic rhetoric but as soon as an asian country says they're pushing boats away.. everyone is freaking out."
..............................

You really need to delete the words; 'xenophobic' and 'racist' from your dictionaries Josh.

Accepting reality is not being racist or xenophobic; it's recognising the absolutes of Science and Truth- from Economics and Mathematics, to Proxemics and Demographics.

A few points:

1) According to many on here, in the UK we have our OWN increasing numbers of homeless, destitute, desperate and hungry people.

2) So let's imagine that YOU live in the most common type of house - a 3 bed semi.

3) The average Total Floor Area of that 3 bed semi is 96.8 sq m - down from 98.8 sq m over the past 10 years due to shrinking land availability, a dearth of homes, affordability etc.

4) Ignoring Statutory Overcrowding legislation - which deems a room measuring 6.5 square meters as 'suitable' for one person and a room measuring 10.2 square meters as suitable for two people - it is possible for 100 homeless people to shelter from the elements every night in YOUR lovely 3 bed semi alone, by allowing them to sleep on the floor of every room.

Now YOU have SERIOUS problems:

5) The average 3 bed semi has:

a) one bathroom and just 2 toilets for 100 people.
b) one kitchen with one cooker.
c) only three or four sets of bedding.
d) limited pans, plates, crockery etc etc etc.
e) One fridge and freezer.
f) very limited storage.
g) only a couple of TV's.

SOLUTION:

e) Build a massive dormitory bedroom extension
f) Build 6 more bathrooms, 6 more wc's, 6 more kitchens - 6 more of everything.
f) Buy lots more beds, bedding, new sets of clothes for 100 people.
g)But don't forget to incorporate a massive upgrade to the sewers, water supply, electricity and gas - oh and arrange to pay the council for 2 or 3 huge commercial waste skips instead of your old wheelie bin.

NO CAN DO? WHY?

6)Well, the average Garden size of your average semi is just 163,2 sq metres - shrinking from 168 sq m in 1983.

7) Ease of access into this shrinking garden is 93.8% - down from 94% in 1983.

THERE SIMPLY IS NOT ROOM TO EXTEND - but even if there were, YOU have other problems:

YOU HAVE NOT GOT ANY MONEY WITH WHICH TO EXTEND, PUT IN NEW ADEQUATE INFRASTRUCTURE , AND RE-EQUIP:

6) The average household debt is now around £60,000 - up from just £29,000 in 2005.

So YOU want to help but are HELPLESS to HELP because:

A) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE SPACE.
B) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE RESOURCES.
C) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE MONEY.

The UK is in a FAR WORSE position:

This country is overcrowded.
This country is in debt.
This country's Police, Health, Education, Benefits, Social Services, and EVERY OTHER service is STRETCHED to BREAKING POINT.
The majority of this country's indigenous people are living increasingly difficult lives on increasingly limited incomes - an increasingly miserable existence really - with drug, drink, suicide rates up, and Food Banks on the up.

This country CANNOT HELP.

A) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE SPACE.
B) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE RESOURCES.
C) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE MONEY.

It has got nothing to do with 'Xenophobia' or 'Racism' or 'Extreme Right Wing-Ism' but ALL to do with Economics, Mathematics, Proxemics and Demographics.

Unless you show me the 100 homeless sleeping over at yours every night, I will stand by the above.

I don't understand the whole math behind your house&garden thing, so I apologise for that.. but I believe that the reason our public services are so damaged is a result of the extreme austerity cuts applied by the tories. Food banks also a result of welfare cuts.

Originally Posted by empire

how can we clampdown on it, when we have the floodgates opened thanks to tony blair, for handing are country over to the scumbags the eussr,

Did you seriously just compare the EU to a dictatorship and totalitarian regime?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

I don't understand the whole math behind your house&garden thing, so I apologise for that.. but I believe that the reason our public services are so damaged is a result of the extreme austerity cuts applied by the tories. Food banks also a result of welfare cuts.



Did you seriously just compare the EU to a dictatorship and totalitarian regime?

illegal wars, umpteen countries bankrupt , civil wars erupting, illegal cartels, effectively banning the poorest nations outside Europe from trading, raping the African coastlines, allowing tens of thousands to drown at sea? the end result of the eu dictatorship is starting to resemble that of dictatorships and totalitarian regimes

[kirklancaster]

It was even envisaged as The Fourth Reich, and its architects were Nazis who realised that they were losing the Second World War and that they could not conquer Europe by military means so must do so by Economic means.

Merkells is the NEW Fuhrer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...kels-tune.html

[Crimson Dynamo]

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Too true LT.

[JoshBB]

Not that I care, but this is another promise that the tories have failed to keep

[empire]

well the eu makes the rich richer, with cheap labour fron poor eastern europe, and the british workers are given no choice but to do work at low wages, thanks to the new labour and tories, who sold are people out,

[empire]

in truth socialism has never worked for britain, labour pm james callaghan said to the young people of 1979 that there was no future in this country for them, and he was right, britain then was in decline, and it is on decline right now, because we are suck in the eu, the only thing that would not turn this country into greece is the eu currency, we are lucky to have kept the pound, when labour left number ten cabinet, in 2010, they left a copy note saying their was no more money in the treasury, I believe that labour wasted half of that money on the eu, in turn got nothing back but paying other countries debt's in the eu, today their is no future for the british people, because are mps sold are jobs out to cheap labour,

[the truth]

Originally Posted by empire

in truth socialism has never worked for britain, labour pm james callaghan said to the young people of 1979 that there was no future in this country for them, and he was right, britain then was in decline, and it is on decline right now, because we are suck in the eu, the only thing that would not turn this country into greece is the eu currency, we are lucky to have kept the pound, when labour left number ten cabinet, in 2010, they left a copy note saying their was no more money in the treasury, I believe that labour wasted half of that money on the eu, in turn got nothing back but paying other countries debt's in the eu, today their is no future for the british people, because are mps sold are jobs out to cheap labour,

the trouble is there is a room for some socialist ideas and iderals, socialist policies but not with the fake new labourites. they are fake they lack any integrity and all they want is power with no actual moral convictions. they are dead in the water

what these new labour fans fail to realise is that I AM SOCIALIST, well a progressive one at least. I applaud much of what Obama has done. I think a lot of it is marvellous. hes especially helped small businesses which I believe are the key to a healthy economy and maybe society at large

example 1) redistribute wealth. simplify , scrap all sly underhand new labour stealth taxes that rob the working classes..simply have a sliding scale of taxes all the way from 10% to 50% at every £10,000 all the way up to the multi millionaires

2) fight to scrap vat totally. its an enslavement tax. THIS IS THE BIGGEST THING LABOUR COULD EVER ACHIEVE TO TOTALLY TRNSFORM THE COUNTRY. it would allow thousands of new businesses to grow and challenge the monopolies create enormous competition and enormous innovation and jobs etc etc
3) scrap town centre parking and vastly reduce business rates in town centres for small business.
4) pass a new law making it easier for those falsely accused of bigotry to take action against the false accuser
5) tighten the benefits laws. make the bridge between benefits and work far easier to bridge. its not always the fault of the people on benefits as working 6) hours keeps them all benefits then working over 16 hours risks them losing their homes. people wont take the risk so the system has to change massively. work must be rewarded worklessness must not
7) stop demonising wealth makers , employers , landlords...new labour fans are the most sad cynical blind brainwashed droogs in the country they believe all wealth creators are pernicious bullying money grabbing crooks...when nothing could be further from the truth in many cases...theyre the brave hard working risk takers we must have to move forward and build an economy. same for landlords they have no protection at all
8) name the accusers in all legal cases, the current system is imbalanced and destroys innocents.
9) apologise for the horrific past which frankly will never be forgiven anyway. encourage free speech and stop oppressing the people. give us back our language and our free speech without endlessly falsely accusing people of bigotry. that is exactly the reason we got into this mess
10) quit women only shortlists. theyre illegal, theyre anti democratic theyre a disgrace. yes make it easier for women to get into work to stay in work and support families....but to ban men from running for parliament is a disgrace....even many women will agree on this....ban women only shortlists or men only shortlists for any job....try concentrating on the truly oppressed ie the disabled. totally overlooked for a generation

11) make a promise and deliver it. particularly to try and cut back the mass of red tape created with devolution especially that has made policing impossible, in fact that's made most public sector jobs impossible

12) fight to get back some laws from Europe. they know make up 80% of our laws. get control of our borders and get a points system in place as with most other western societies....try to make a deal with the eu to share out the most desperate cases fairly across Europe. scrap the child benefits to send abroad....immigrants must pay national insurance for the same period as everyone else.....immigration is mostly a good thing. but 300,000 a year consisting of illegals galore is not feasible its plain dangerous

13) rediscover your identity. the unions aren't all good or all bad. they fought for essential rights....but they lost their way and self destructed...remind yourselves what worked and what didn't.

14) the industries? if labour want to stay in Europe then fight to get the red tape lifted on us digging up our black gold , old king coal. we have the best coal in the world under our feet. since its been untouched for 20 years its only gotten even better.....new techniques to pick it out mostly with machines must be exploited. why wait for the germans to dig up our coal? we can liquefy it and use it in 101 different ways too..the germans have increased their coal production by 30% but the laws the eu has changed has allowed the germans to do so and kept us with our hands tied...get a better deal or get out.....the price of commodities goes up and down. so you never turn your back on your greatest natural resources. we have many open casts reopened its possible to get deeper given the right incentives , the right rules too. in wales new labour had to cut back their insane rules in the end and hey presto opencast coal was back overnight

15) stop praising the nhs as perfect just to suck up to the unions to get the votes, people see through it now. roll back the mass of middle management and the stinking corruption and waste in the trust. employ 100s of people instead to assess and deal with patients and staff complaints, stop brushing these matters under the table

16) nhs clear vision. say what you like about the tories but to state their goal of 7 day , 24 7 nhs is an uplifting positive even noble goal....new labours scoffing and sneering is simply embarrassing. the tories are saying lets get more scanned and screened all week and cut the red tape...sometimes it takes weeks just to get a proper test for a blood clot....25,000 a year die from undiagnosed blood clots. labour cannot win by dragging down their opponents or spinning any more...to win you must simply be better than your opponents

17) hold local government and councils to account. scarp the system, overturn it. why are they allowed to waste and still get rewarded for it. reward the councils who come in under budget. simple. that way the councils would get the sewers and roads fixed at the same time to save money. then theyd get their rewards. instead of being rewarded for wasting so they get the same funding next year. its immoral its wasteful its wrong
18) ensure every council has 1 member of the business community representing businesses in every council meeting to state the voice for the economy. this has never happened.
19) limit the period of time a person can lead a council or sit on a council. many go on decades, by which time they have so much dirt on everyone else everyone is too scared to get rid of them. blackmail is rife at councils
20) limit the endless rules and regs councils invent for hammering more fines and tariffs on small businesses. they need a chance to grow and create jobs. instead tighten up regulations on bigger companies instead they have far greater responsibilities and in many cases put lives at risk


that's just a start

[Kizzy]

'And even the first paragraph above is NO MORE personal than your posts or Kizzy's or JoshBB's are when opposing my posts or The Truths or LT's, so I do not understand your reaction. '

If our post's were personal they would be removed, I'd rather you didn't bring my name into your posts in an attempt to justify your comments thanks.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'And even the first paragraph above is NO MORE personal than your posts or Kizzy's or JoshBB's are when opposing my posts or The Truths or LT's, so I do not understand your reaction. '

If our post's were personal they would be removed, I'd rather you didn't bring my name into your posts in an attempt to justify your comments thanks.

I stated: 'No more personal than' meaning not personal.

And do not be so hypocritical, you often bring other people's names into posts - including mine - and I did not bring your name in to justify any comments because my comments do not NEED justifying. I also did not bring your name in in any derogatory manner so your hollow protests fall on deaf ears I'm afraid.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I stated: 'No more personal than' meaning not personal.

And do not be so hypocritical, you often bring other people's names into posts - including mine - and I did not bring your name in to justify any comments because my comments do not NEED justifying. I also did not bring your name in in any derogatory manner so your hollow protests fall on deaf ears I'm afraid.

I don't think I do, I deliberately don't as I wouldn't want to inadvertently offend anyone.

[arista]

The PM is in Riga , Latvia today

http://news.sky.com/story/1488632/ca...u-negotiations

[arista]

The PM is Live on all Media
speaking in Latvia

[the truth]

In the end Cameron knows the only way to reduce immigration is to overhaul the benefits system (the national insurance contributions required to be paid to qualify)
other than that I don't see any way to control the borders unless were out of the eu

so the European leaders need to ask themselves 1 question, do we allow the uk to amend their welfare benefits as they wish or lose the uk from the eu

(I do think theres a heck of a lot more going on especially the insane rules and regulations that are crippling businesses across Europe and the enormous waste, 1 town in wales has just wasted £180,000 on eu money putting up walled gardens on 4 roundabouts, just typical nonsense like this across europe)

[Kizzy]

How is that truth, attempting to decry the view of others by using the phrase 'typical new Labour' and asking if they've read reams of Legislation isn't an opinion.
The rest is conjecture.