[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

I'm not surprised you find it all absurd because you keep completely misrepresenting what's being discussed.

Who said Zulus weren't black? Who said black is a dirty word? Who is offended at the mention of skin colour? Who said there was anything wrong with being black and proud?

Oh wait.... the actual discussion was about white people "blacking up", yes that was it.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That was because the Truth’s views on women were pretty extreme but non-extreme views simply questioning allegations of racism are repeatedly labelled racist on here. I made a definitive link between men dressing as women for fun and entertainment as people dressing as zulus for the same reasons but judging by the reactions of some they see that as different - what is the difference? There is no difference.

Women are and always have been a maligned group and treated as a second-class by many men worldwide despite making up 50% of the population, which is worse. I am not aware of any shouts of sexism when men dress as women but it’s very different if a white person dresses as a Zulu. It’s double standards.

It proves to me that the constant uproar about so-called racism has more to do with what is fashionable and PC and being seen to be doing the right thing than it does with any real concerns with equality as any such genuine concerns would not be so selective.

If you can explain how a man dressing as a woman, or a woman dressing as a man is sexist or at all comparable to blackface then you'll have a discussion.

As it is, you're taking an unrelated topic, and warping it to make a point about something else.

Note: Using the term PC fifty times a day does not give your posts more validity.

[Shaun]

I was about to say "I can't believe we're hearing defences of blackface on TiBB in 2017" but... actually I can.

[DemolitionRed]

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

Some commonsense.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

This puts an interesting spin on it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

I would have thought that was screamingly obvious however the clue being of course it was 'the day of the dead'... :/

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I would have thought that was screamingly obvious however the clue being of course it was 'the day of the dead'... :/

Its tradition to whiten your face for Day of the Dead. Its tradition to blacken your face for the Zulu dance. One is to look like a ghost/skeleton and the other is to look like a magic man.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Its tradition to whiten your face for Day of the Dead. Its tradition to blacken your face for the Zulu dance. One is to look like a ghost/skeleton and the other is to look like a magic man.

The dead are the dead, Zulus are black.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

apparently so us whiteys can get our knickers in a twist over just about anything, the troupe leader is a Zulu he had no issue with it, but as usual we know better allegedly

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

apparently so us whiteys can get our knickers in a twist over just about anything, the troupe leader is a Zulu he had no issue with it, but as usual we know better allegedly

Sorry I wasn't aware that the troupe leader of an obscure festival somewhere in England had been declared spokesperson for all black Africans.

And just to pre empt the "well u aren't either"; I'm not the one claiming to speak for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of people who, like the troupe leader, are not bothered by it. I am saying that there are clearly plenty who will not be OK with it.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Sorry I wasn't aware that the troupe leader of an obscure festival somewhere in England had been declared spokesperson for all black Africans.

And just to pre empt the "well u aren't either"; I'm not the one claiming to speak for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of people who, like the troupe leader, are not bothered by it. I am saying that there are clearly plenty who will not be OK with it.

as the troupe leader is a Zulu I think he might be more entitled to say what is and isn't racist in his view? no he can't speak for everyone but it is interesting that he has no issues with it, is this just whites flagellating themselves for the sins of the forefathers it seems very in vogue at the moment?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

as the troupe leader is a Zulu I think he might be more entitled to say what is and isn't racist in his view? no he can't speak for everyone but it is interesting that he has no issues with it, is this just whites flagellating themselves for the sins of the forefathers it seems very in vogue at the moment?

Let's revisit this for a moment...

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-annual-parade

[Vicky.]

Even with that huge paragraph, I admit I don't know much about Zulu people though tbh. So may be entirely off bat here. Blackface in general as part of a costume, is unacceptable.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Even with that huge paragraph, I admit I don't know much about Zulu people though tbh. So may be entirely off bat here. Blackface in general as part of a costume, is unacceptable.

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

You've been watching 'White Chicks' haven't you?...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Reason: better not say that

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes

Oh yes often I forget how much many many Irish love the English... they are almost passionate in their adoration.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes

we mention it plenty tbf Cherie, there's only a bout a billion songs written about it etc I should know Gav used to play in a Trad band

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes

That's good, and I'm sure black people manage to get through a day without referring to slavery every 5 minutes.

But we're not talking about that are we.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

Sorry but yeah. I had a huge paragraph written out attempting to go into class analysis and all sorts, but this is the easy to understand shorthand version of what I was waffling for ages about

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

Women have been and still are oppressed in many societies but we don’t make a fuss about men dressing as women. Nothing stereotypical or mocking about drag queens then. That is not only about history but about an unchallenged here and now. I am calling out those that have such blatant double standards.

So continue to explain if you feel the need.