[Cherie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

apparently so us whiteys can get our knickers in a twist over just about anything, the troupe leader is a Zulu he had no issue with it, but as usual we know better allegedly

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Reason: better not say that

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes

Oh yes often I forget how much many many Irish love the English... they are almost passionate in their adoration.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes

we mention it plenty tbf Cherie, there's only a bout a billion songs written about it etc I should know Gav used to play in a Trad band

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Oh yes often I forget how much many many Irish love the English... they are almost passionate in their adoration.

Have you ever been to Ireland? the current generation don't have any issues with English people, so know what you are talking about before you say it. There may be some of the older generations in their 80s/90s who still hold a grudge

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

we mention it plenty tbf Cherie, there's only a bout a billion songs written about it etc I should know Gav used to play in a Trad band

no body cares about it now, all the songs that refer to it are from previous generations, I don't know any trad song recently written that refers to it

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes

That's good, and I'm sure black people manage to get through a day without referring to slavery every 5 minutes.

But we're not talking about that are we.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

Sorry but yeah. I had a huge paragraph written out attempting to go into class analysis and all sorts, but this is the easy to understand shorthand version of what I was waffling for ages about

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

no body cares about it now, all the songs that refer to it are from previous generations, I don't know any trad song recently written that refers to it

Ok but in this thread we're talking about a particular thing that was used to mock black people in the past, what you're comparing it to is in general if Irish people are ok with English people now considering our history, a fairer comparison would be to say would Irish people be offended if a British person used something awful they did to us back then now because we should be over it (I can't think of an example, sorry ) Do you get what I mean?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Have you ever been to Ireland? the current generation don't have any issues with English people, so know what you are talking about before you say it. There may be some of the older generations in their 80s/90s who still hold a grudge

I have and I have Irish family roots too, you brought it up Cherie you can't dictate who comments on your posts either. If there are as you say those who hold a grudge regarding that why would it seem impossible that the Zulu would not also have a similar view on their suppression?

As you said one questioned was fine and I'm sure there would be plenty of Irish who would say the historic crimes of the English was fine now...and some not.

Is there a Sussex festival that depicts hordes of starving Irish?... No there isn't, why not?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I would have thought that was screamingly obvious however the clue being of course it was 'the day of the dead'... :/

Its tradition to whiten your face for Day of the Dead. Its tradition to blacken your face for the Zulu dance. One is to look like a ghost/skeleton and the other is to look like a magic man.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ok but in this thread we're talking about a particular thing that was used to mock black people in the past, what you're comparing it to is in general if Irish people are ok with English people now considering our history, a fairer comparison would be to say would Irish people be offended if a British person used something awful they did to us back then now because we should be over it (I can't think of an example, sorry ) Do you get what I mean?

I do, but if it were an Irish person who was in charge, would we be offended, I don't think we would be in fairness

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I do, but if it were an Irish person who was in charge, would we be offended, I don't think we would be in fairness

I think we would tbf Depending on what it was I suppose

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Its tradition to whiten your face for Day of the Dead. Its tradition to blacken your face for the Zulu dance. One is to look like a ghost/skeleton and the other is to look like a magic man.

The dead are the dead, Zulus are black.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Have you ever been to Ireland? the current generation don't have any issues with English people, so know what you are talking about before you say it. There may be some of the older generations in their 80s/90s who still hold a grudge

Just because they don't have issues with English people doesn't mean it would be fine? I don't have any issues with English people... My wife is an "English people" and therefore most of my extended family (as I don't have much family left myself) is English. I don't have issues with any of them.

I would have some pretty major issues an English person if they decided to dress up in a kilt and do a mock Highland fling, shouting "Och aye look at me I'm a Scotchman!"

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

apparently so us whiteys can get our knickers in a twist over just about anything, the troupe leader is a Zulu he had no issue with it, but as usual we know better allegedly

Sorry I wasn't aware that the troupe leader of an obscure festival somewhere in England had been declared spokesperson for all black Africans.

And just to pre empt the "well u aren't either"; I'm not the one claiming to speak for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of people who, like the troupe leader, are not bothered by it. I am saying that there are clearly plenty who will not be OK with it.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Sorry I wasn't aware that the troupe leader of an obscure festival somewhere in England had been declared spokesperson for all black Africans.

And just to pre empt the "well u aren't either"; I'm not the one claiming to speak for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of people who, like the troupe leader, are not bothered by it. I am saying that there are clearly plenty who will not be OK with it.

as the troupe leader is a Zulu I think he might be more entitled to say what is and isn't racist in his view? no he can't speak for everyone but it is interesting that he has no issues with it, is this just whites flagellating themselves for the sins of the forefathers it seems very in vogue at the moment?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

as the troupe leader is a Zulu I think he might be more entitled to say what is and isn't racist in his view? no he can't speak for everyone but it is interesting that he has no issues with it, is this just whites flagellating themselves for the sins of the forefathers it seems very in vogue at the moment?

Let's revisit this for a moment...

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-annual-parade

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Let's revisit this for a moment...

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-annual-parade

Completely different article by the same media outlet, where is the truth?

[user104658]

Err hush Kizzy, the silly little Zulu man LOVES blackface how dare you suggest otherwise.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

where is the truth?

He got banned for being sexist at Vicky remember...

[Kizzy]

From the same article...
'An effigy of Pope Paul V (d1621) is burnt by Cliffe Society and all the while torches and barrels burn and “rookies”, powerful agricultural bird scarers, are detonated in packed streets as rum, mead and the local Harvey’s ale flows. Eighty people were injured last year.'

It sounds delightful... :/
I'll stick to sparklers in the back garden with the kiddies.