[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

And that is what puzzles me. Surely that's quite a significant part of the day. It puzzles me how she couldn't remember not stopping at the daycare centre, not taking her child out of the car, not registering him or speaking to the staff. I don't feel like that sort of thing would slip the mind of someone who is in the right frame of mind to be a mother... that's just how I feel.

See I think this is why it happens so much more in the US and why people struggle to understand. Most US maternity laws are absolutely shocking. New mothers are expected to be back at work full time within a matter of WEEKS, when they are sleep deprived, stressed and exhausted. There is no support net, and simply no way that most are anywhere near ready to be doing so. Simply put, they are NOT in a good frame of mind, as they are not ready to be working at all let alone working and caring for a new baby at the same time, but have been given very little choice.

It would happen FAR, FAR less often if the US had proper paid maternity leave like pretty much every other civilised country. It would happen less still if new fathers were given half decent parental leave, too, but hardly any countries offer that yet.

[smudgie]

Perhaps she went onto auto pilot of her old routine.
Dropped the eldest child off at childcare and then went straight to work, as she would have done many many times before having the baby.
Perhaps the new baby had just started at their nursery/childcare and it totally skipped her mind.
Hopefully this case can be proven beyond doubt either way, so many different scenarios to consider.
Tragic.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Perhaps she went onto auto pilot of her old routine.
Dropped the eldest child off at childcare and then went straight to work, as she would have done many many times before having the baby.
Perhaps the new baby had just started at their nursery/childcare and it totally skipped her mind.
Hopefully this case can be proven beyond doubt either way, so many different scenarios to consider.
Tragic.

Are there any other excuses?

Did the mccans get them too?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

And that is what puzzles me. Surely that's quite a significant part of the day. It puzzles me how she couldn't remember not stopping at the daycare centre, not taking her child out of the car, not registering him or speaking to the staff. I don't feel like that sort of thing would slip the mind of someone who is in the right frame of mind to be a mother... that's just how I feel.

Well, that's why it's tragic and must be a combination of factors involved.

In one of the examples in that article, the mother's daily routine was changed last minute and she had to drop off her husband at work in a car she doesn't normally drive. Dropped her husband off and somewhere in her mind her daily "drop off" had been made.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

any time i have ever forgotten something i've had an oh **** moment not long after. There is always a little trigger that makes you remember .... always. I can't imagine that being a long time at all with a new born baby, something that normal people would be thinking about sub-consciously almost constantly. It doesn't point categorically to intent, but it does raise serious flags

But, again, it's not about forgetting. They all remember the baby, but mistakenly think they are with other people/elsewhere.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Perhaps she went onto auto pilot of her old routine.
Dropped the eldest child off at childcare and then went straight to work, as she would have done many many times before having the baby.
Perhaps the new baby had just started at their nursery/childcare and it totally skipped her mind.
Hopefully this case can be proven beyond doubt either way, so many different scenarios to consider.
Tragic.

That's it. So many factors involved, it's a much more complex situation than it first appears.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Are there any other excuses?

Did the mccans get them too?

The McCann's intentionally left their children alone in a foreign country. No excuses and a little bit late for Kate to say she forgot about them.

But it's funny how you defend a case where the parent made an INTENTIONAL CHOICE, but completely go against a woman who made a tragic mistake on the basis that she's single and probably on drugs.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

The McCann's intentionally left their children alone in a foreign country. No excuses and a little bit late for Kate to say she forgot about them.

But it's funny how you defend a case where the parent made an INTENTIONAL CHOICE, but completely go against a woman who made a tragic mistake on the basis that she's single and probably on drugs.

See this is where I dont get LTs stance.....he will vehemently defend the mccanns who admit leaving 3 young children under the age of 4 alone in an apartment, admitting that maddie woke the.night before crying and asking where they were, to go to eat, drink and socialise. Was kate taking strong painkillers too....or was she fully compus mentus when she made that decision to woefully neglect her children? Most people will answer that as we know from kate and gerrys own testimony that they were of sound mind when they left their children. However, we have one report from this but LT is surmising drugs?? At least wait for more testimony before castigating and casting your big stereotypical net because this woman was a single parent

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

See this is where I dont get LTs stance.....he will vehemently defend the mccanns who admit leaving 3 young children under the age of 4 alone in an apartment, admitting that maddie woke the.night before crying and asking where they were, to go to eat, drink and socialise. Was kate taking strong painkillers too....or was she fully compus mentus when she made that decision to woefully neglect her children? Most people will answer that as we know from kate and gerrys own testimony that they were of sound mind when they left their children. However, we have one report from this but LT is surmising drugs?? At least wait for more testimony before castigating and casting your big stereotypical net because this woman was a single parent

Yep, if anything the McCann's were drugging the children.

[user104658]

I actually would feel bad for the McCanns even with the basics of (what I believe) happened, if they had simply owned that. That is, we know they deliberately left them, I believe they possibly sedated her, and I believe she died in an accident while they were out. If they had come home and discovered that - even though it would be their fault - I would still have full sympathy for their tragedy.

My problem with the McCanns is that I personally 100% believe they found her dead, disposed of her body, and covered up (and are still covering up) what really happened. I don't believe they should have been, then or now, legally punished for her death despite it being a terrible mistake to leave her alone. I *do* believe that they should be punished for deception, fraud, and perverting the course of justice.

Its not comparable to this situation. It would only be comparable if the mother had found the baby in the car, but instead of raising the alarm, she had gotten rid of the evidence and claimed that the baby was abducted.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

See I think this is why it happens so much more in the US and why people struggle to understand. Most US maternity laws are absolutely shocking. New mothers are expected to be back at work full time within a matter of WEEKS, when they are sleep deprived, stressed and exhausted. There is no support net, and simply no way that most are anywhere near ready to be doing so. Simply put, they are NOT in a good frame of mind, as they are not ready to be working at all let alone working and caring for a new baby at the same time, but have been given very little choice.

It would happen FAR, FAR less often if the US had proper paid maternity leave like pretty much every other civilised country. It would happen less still if new fathers were given half decent parental leave, too, but hardly any countries offer that yet.

29 cases so far in a country of 300+ million, not quite an epidemic. We are not a socialist country in the sense much of Europe is (I guess?). I don't think our current tax code, much less the structure of our govt, could support that type of socialism... unless employers are expected to cover, in which case, good luck. We have a mixed system, crony capitalism, not quite full capitalist... which is part of why we don't have the benefits of either.

Personally, I would want less socialism, not more. I work at home, which would help with child-rearing. Having lower taxes helps a lot with everything for us, so while certain statistics may not compare (it's not a competition...), we benefit in other ways that at least with the people I speak with, it is worth it.

I don't hear about mothers having to complain. We are family oriented in the south, so most ppl have family who help each other. It is actually amazing how people manage to make it work... the other thought, what would ppl do if there was a hit to the economy and the safety net goes.. I just don't agree more socialism is always the answer and I do feel like more and more, that is increasingly the default answer.

I think there are a variety of reasons anyone can become scatterbrained, but there comes a point you know your limits and what you can't/can handle.... but again, none of this speculation really matters in the long-run as we don't have the details, just the general bits. So to assume there is always some easy fix available or we should increase this social program.. I think just a tendency for ppl to force their own emotional projections and wanting easy solutions to all problems... which wouldn't apply here anyway bc we have a completely different system.

Accidents will occur. It doesn't mean it is always preventable.

What kirk said about the rear view mirror, having the child in view as a reminder... I've done a lot of caretaking and I can't take my eyes off of someone for too long who I am looking after, for example my grandmothers rehab... she had a lot that needed to be managed and with kids, I wouldnt want them out of my sight... so I don't agree with scatterbrain it is so simple, just add more maternity leave... if someone is a physician or careworker looking after someone not in the condition to emotionally or physically able to show full autonomy, then socialism goes out the window.. accidents happen, but they have procedures to prevent to an extent any major problems as long as this is followed. The same goes if you are a caretaker or parent. So that person has to adopt a different mentality, that that person is completely and entirely depedent on you not to fail...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Its the rush to absolve her that is the issue here, it probably is a tragic case but could also be the perfect crime as so many people are willing to believe her version of events, in contrast the general consensus regarding the woman who left the baby in a car outside Asda is that she should be charged with neglect, what if she claims she forgot her baby was in the car, will people just shrug their shoulders and go...new mother yeah she probably forgot ...never mind....next time you are driving clock how many times you check your rear view mirrors and catch sight of the back seat, she shouldn't be on the road if she is just driving with her eyes on the road ahead which is another issue!

...for me Cherie..it’s not about absolving anyone of anything and especially something like this...it’s more that these memory/thought connection glitches are possible in my opinion...even for a whole day...and until I know anything other that would lead to something being more purposeful...?...it’s something I’d rather look at or think of, because the alternatives are so abhorrent and so unthinkable, you know...if and when there was any proof otherwise, it’s obviously something I would have to accept and would hope was legally punished to the maximum...but accepting it now with only what we know in being reported...is actually quite hard for me, I have to be honest....not only that a parent is capable of killing a child which we all know to be true...but in such a way of that death in the baby being left in a car in baking heat all day...


...yeah the numbers could be rising with cases like this because it’s being seen as a ‘perfect crime’, that’s a possibility also...but it’s hard to think of that kind of evil without any proof of it being so for me...acceptance isn’t hard with that proof but I find it hard without it though...

[Maru]

The police are actively investigating it, so I don't think there is a rush to absolve. A perfect crime in my understanding is when evidence of guilt can't be ascertained whether an investigation occurs or not, i.e. will likely be dismissed... not whether us randoms on the internet decide to raise a pitch fork or not?

Maybe it could be said some here are giving her a "pass"..., I guess?... but I don't feel the default for me could be for me to raise a pitchfork either. I don't assume the innocence or guilt of anyone as a casual newsreader... after all, we are only skimming the surface, we don't really know any of the key details... aside from the reporting of what was believed to have happened..

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Maru

29 cases so far in a country of 300+ million, not quite an epidemic. We are not a socialist country in the sense much of Europe is (I guess?). I don't think our current tax code, much less the structure of our govt, could support that type of socialism... unless employers are expected to cover, in which case, good luck. We have a mixed system, crony capitalism, not quite full capitalist... which is part of why we don't have the benefits of either.

Personally, I would want less socialism, not more. I work at home, which would help with child-rearing. Having lower taxes helps a lot with everything for us, so while certain statistics may not compare (it's not a competition...), we benefit in other ways that at least with the people I speak with, it is worth it.

I don't hear about mothers having to complain. We are family oriented in the south, so most ppl have family who help each other. It is actually amazing how people manage to make it work... the other thought, what would ppl do if there was a hit to the economy and the safety net goes.. I just don't agree more socialism is always the answer and I do feel like more and more, that is increasingly the default answer.

I think there are a variety of reasons anyone can become scatterbrained, but there comes a point you know your limits and what you can't/can handle.... but again, none of this speculation really matters in the long-run as we don't have the details, just the general bits. So to assume there is always some easy fix available or we should increase this social program.. I think just a tendency for ppl to force their own emotional projections and wanting easy solutions to all problems... which wouldn't apply here anyway bc we have a completely different system.

Accidents will occur. It doesn't mean it is always preventable.

What kirk said about the rear view mirror, having the child in view as a reminder... I've done a lot of caretaking and I can't take my eyes off of someone for too long who I am looking after, for example my grandmothers rehab... she had a lot that needed to be managed and with kids, I wouldnt want them out of my sight... so I don't agree with scatterbrain it is so simple, just add more maternity leave... if someone is a physician or careworker looking after someone not in the condition to emotionally or physically able to show full autonomy, then socialism goes out the window.. accidents happen, but they have procedures to prevent to an extent any major problems as long as this is followed. The same goes if you are a caretaker or parent. So that person has to adopt a different mentality, that that person is completely and entirely depedent on you not to fail...

I'm alright jack...

What an excellent idea lets all work from home... by the way your house just burned down because the firefighter is working from home today.

You also seem to be discounting post natal depression here too, which is in some cases far, far worse than being 'scatterbrained' It's terrifying.
I don't know the stats for kids injured or killed due to PND in the US but I would wager it's higher than 29.

Would your 'less socialism' improve on that or not?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm alright jack...

What an excellent idea lets all work from home... by the way your house just burned down because the firefighter is working from home today.

You also seem to be discounting post natal depression here too, which is in some cases far, far worse than being 'scatterbrained' It's terrifying.
I don't know the stats for kids injured or killed due to PND in the US but I would wager it's higher than 29.

Would your 'less socialism' improve on that or not?

I think that Maru's specific use of the word "personally" makes it abundantly clear that she is speaking from a purely personal perspective - which makes your sarcasm redundant.

I think her post is quite intelligently written and the points which she makes in it are all valid.