[Cherie]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I have just seen that next Monday nights ch4 dispatches is asking this question.


I remember posting a video on the night of the fire on here that showed the flat the fire started in and I posted about how the firemen we're aiming the hose underneath the fire rather than at the top...


Now that I remember though I think i posted without posting the video, then when I went back to try and post it the video was mysteriously missing from my original source.



But anyway...I have always believed since then that the fire service were at fault in the fact they tragically underestimated the dangers on that tragic night.

Even IF the fire brigade made some errors on the night, and lets face it they probably did given its a live situation and they are only human, the blame lies on who signed off on flammable cladding on a building, no one else

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Even IF the fire brigade made some errors on the night, and lets face it they probably did given its a live situation and they are only human, the blame lies on who signed off on flammable cladding on a building, no one else

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

If they had pointed their hoses at a different angle? Nah. If the building hadn't been covered in flammable material? Absolutely.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

If they had pointed their hoses at a different angle? Nah. If the building hadn't been covered in flammable material? Absolutely.

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by parmnion

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

Yes because the flats in those tower blocks are supposed to be independantly safe and the advice it to stay put, that is of course unless the cladding surrounding the whole building isn't flammable which nobody knew until it was too late!

The firefighters were working on the premise that the building was up to standard safety wise with clear stairwells, and sprinker systems, what do you say to the residents commitee who were fighting for years to get these safety systems in place? too bad the firefighters weren't up to it on the night?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yes because the flats in those tower blocks are supposed to be independantly safe and the advice it to stay put, that is of course unless the cladding surrounding the whole building isn't flammable which nobody knew until it was too late!

The firefighters were working on the premise that the building was up to standard safety wise with clear stairwells, and sprinker systems, what do you say to the residents commitee who were fighting for years to get these safety systems in place? too bad the firefighters weren't up to it on the night?

One should ask oneself if the resident commitee had been fighting to get these safety measures in place then why didn't the fire brigade know that the safety measure went in place.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by parmnion

One should ask oneself if the resident commitee had been fighting to get these safety measures in place then why didn't the fire brigade know that the safety measure went in place.

Nobody knew the cladding was flammable apart from the person who signed off on it. I believe they were aware of the sprinkler system not being in operation but on the night are you really going to refer to your notes about a particular building? The cladding is the reason it went up like it did

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

Of course there was confusion, it was a massive incident, probably one most of the fire service and other emergency staff will not have seen in their lifetimes. Evacuations and timing would have been very much based on them assuming that the building didn't have flammable cladding wrapped around it also.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

It's a pointless "captain hindsight" question; in literally EVERY situation where there are deaths, of course more lives could have been saved if the outcome was already known? Unfortunately though, all that can actually be done when a disaster is in progress is making an educated guess and hoping for the best. It's the sort of decisions firefighters have to make every day. Noticing that someone is declining in a car wreck and making the decision to cut them free - but the car was pinching an artery and that person bleeds to death in 20 seconds. Might that person have survived if they had waited? Sure. Maybe. Or maybe they would have died trapped, and we'd be asking "might they have survived if they had been cut loose".

It's irrelevant. The Grenfell deaths are on the people who chose to use flammable cladding and not to install other fire safety equipment. Any attempt to divert away from that is just... grubby.

I suppose to continue the same parallel; it's like a drunk driver who caused a crash saying "Well, that family would have survived if the firefighters and paramedics had done a better job".