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Originally Posted by Twosugars

Bc their attitude to Israeli government policies is varied so they cant be described as israel lobby.

I liked up the term to understand your reservations. I see some see it as antisemitic
So I quote a defence of it
In a 2004 speech, Goldberg said, "There has been an awful lot of talk in the last few years about the rise of the Jewish lobby and the influence of the Jewish lobby. It used to be that you couldn't talk about this sort of thing. When I wrote [the book] Jewish Power in 1996... I was accused by various Jewish lobbyists of inflating and buying into the old myths of international Jewish conspiracies simply by the use of the title."[4] Goldberg disagrees with the sensitivity towards the use of the term, arguing that: "There is such a thing as a Jewish lobby, that the network of organizations that works together to put across what might be called the Jewish community's view on world affairs is not insignificant, it's not an invention, but it is not some sort of all-powerful octopus that it's sometimes portrayed as these days."[4] Mearsheimer and Walt wrote in 2006 that "even the Israeli media refer to America's 'Jewish Lobby'",[21] and stated the following year that "AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents and the Israeli media themselves refer to America's 'Jewish Lobby'."[22]
Wikipedia

I think the criticisms of the term on that article are far stronger than that solitary defence

Talk of a 'Jewish Lobby' in the UK is particularly far wide of the mark and just not really a thing outside of conspiracy circles

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Some valid points, but are you sure that anti semitism doesn't manifest itself publicly?

I think we just see things differently when it comes to your point about criticism of Israel. Israel is an apartheid state, unquestionably, and undeniably. Are you denying or challenging that fact? Israel is also a country that is turning increasingly and even more worryingly rightward, and this pretense that it's become coded is actually the opposite way to how I see things; discussion and debate is actually being shut down because the mere mention of the way successive Israeli governments have treated Palestinians, leaves the accuser open to being labelled an anti semite.

The emphasis on Zionism rather than jews was a way to to avoid such accusations and talk honestly about what is happening over there, without the fear of being labelled as anti-jewish, and that's also now being flipped upside down.

I strongly disagree with the suicide attacks against Israel, but Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist for fighting for his freedom. The UN gives a country under occupation the right to form an army and fight back. These terrorist organisations were setup to fight back. Our media only pushes one side of this issue. None of us know how we would react if we were treated the same way Palestinians.

I just know when one side is oppressed, and one side is the oppressor, I'll always try and support the oppressed. I don't see Corbyn as any different.


I just don't see the same energy when Boris jokes about syria becoming the new Dubai as soon as they've swept the bodies out of the streets, or his letterbox comments, or many of his other directed and pointed racist comments. For Corbyn, it's all innuendo and whispers, with Johnson, people just ignore it because they don't care about genuine racism.

Well I'm not going to be drawn into defending Israeli government policy but given the debate around it I wouldn't consider it a 'fact' and I think we have to be very careful about terminology. Your description of Palestinian terrorists seems overly romanticised given the tactics they use, the language they use (which is definitely explicitly anti-Semitic), their ideology and the backing they get from some quite powerful nations.

In any case though its one thing to criticise Israel's actions but what is more iffy is whipping up this idea of a malign 'Israeli'/'Zionist' influence on our politics and our decision makers. It implies that there are these shadowy Jewish financiers in the background pulling the strings and so every bad thing that happens is then blamed on the 'Israel lobby'. That's what harks back to old anti-Semitic stereotypes as does this idea that Israel is some uniquely evil country and any sympathy you have with them is almost criminal. Take this example of a Labour MP who was trying to improve conditions in Gaza:

She went on the Today programme to talk about the difficulties faced by parents of sick children in Gaza in getting permits to travel to visit them in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Israel’s deputy ambassador to the UK, Sharon Bar-Li, also appeared on the programme. She invited Allin-Khan to continue their discussion at a meeting at the embassy.

After that meeting Allin-Khan tweeted: “It was a pleasure to meet @SharonBarli again at the Israeli Embassy to continue our constructive discussions about access to healthcare for Palestinians. I look forward to continuing to work together on such crucial humanitarian issues.”

And that’s when it all kicked off.

“The pushback was just horrific, unlike anything I have ever experienced,” said Allin-Khan. “I didn’t anticipate a backlash of this nature at all. I was genuinely astonished, and deeply disappointed, at this unleashing of antisemitic abuse on Twitter.” The tweets included accusations that she was a “direct collaborator in apartheid” for having held talks with Israeli diplomats, and of having been “bought by the Zionists for a bag of silver and a duplex in Marbella”. One said: “Disgusting. Collaboration with occupiers and oppressors. Shameless.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-human-rights

That's the sort of thing that has become standard fare