[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah. You also get the impression that people just want to believe Johnny is completely innocent because he's a well loved good looking actor, it feels to me that people in general (not always just men either) are more comfortable with the woman being the bad one and the liar. Initially, people believed Amber because of some recordings but when some others came out to show her acting abusive it was like people were so relieved they could now act like Johnny was the poor manipulated good guy when that really does not seem to be the case at all, it looks very much like both of them acted abusive and aggressive.

I've no love for Johnny Depp, in fact I fully believed everything Amber Heard said about him. I always believe the victims but those tapes... Victims don't gloat about how the world won't believe their supposed abusers, that is abuser talk. That, coupled with the other stories that came out (and most horrifically, her appropriating her assistant's rape story), just screams emotional and mental abuse. It's something I know a lot about, how abusers like that will bend the narrative to make them the victim, how they keep people under their control.

I just can't see Amber Heard as the victim, here.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I've no love for Johnny Depp, in fact I fully believed everything Amber Heard said about him. I always believe the victims but those tapes... Victims don't gloat about how the world won't believe their supposed abusers, that is abuser talk. That, coupled with the other stories that came out (and most horrifically, her appropriating her assistant's rape story), just screams emotional and mental abuse. It's something I know a lot about, how abusers like that will bend the narrative to make them the victim, how they keep people under their control.

I just can't see Amber Heard as the victim, here.

It's not that I see her as the victim, it's that I don't think Johnny is the victim either. Their relationship seemed very very toxic

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..it isn’t because she’s a woman, though...it’s because nothing is proven against her, she wasn’t the one that took out the court action...and the judge heard all evidence of any ‘actions’ with her as well, and has still ruled that Johnny is an abuser...I can’t say beyond that, what hasn’t been in any way proven regarding Amber because that wouldn’t be right...

I mean, there are full and quite detailed recordings of conversations between them where Amber Heard in her own words admits to several acts of domestic violence. I'm not sure that I need a court to rule on that above and beyond hearing it directly from her. As I've said before though, a lot of people take those recordings as proof of Depp being 100% the victim and Heard being "the evil abuser" when if you actually listen with an unbiased ear to the recordings it's pretty clear that violence was a heavy feature of an unhealthy relationship all round from the start. As I also said there are elements of substance abuse wrapped up in there, too, and frankly mutual violence and manipulation is a common feature in such relationships. The narrative that Depp was just on the receiving end never really rang true.

Originally Posted by Liam-

Johnny wasn’t on trial, so I don’t see how it can be seen as him being found guilty of anything

I also agree with this, though... the outcome of a civil case (and in this case, not even a civil case involving the accuser, but against a newspaper) should never be taken as a legal indication/vindication. It is what it is and the burden of proof is completely different to a criminal trial.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's not that I see her as the victim, it's that I don't think Johnny is the victim either. Their relationship seemed very very toxic

I see it the same but sort of different in mutual domestic abuse cases - both of them are victims and both of them are abusers. The circumstances and mindsets that lead people into these sorts of relationships is usually pretty tragic and I don't think being an abuser negates someone also being a victim. I think the two of them have made a HUGE mess.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

As an experiment lets see who's career survives this, I give it a couple of years and Johnny Depp will be back in leading roles and he will be the lovable rogue he always was and Amber will have disappeared in to obscurity

well he has a third Fantastic Beasts movie upcoming for 2021


and maybe also for distraction from all this he could also make more music with that group he's in Hollywood Vampires (something i didn't know before i looked up but apparently he is in a band with Alice Cooper, Joe Perry)

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I see it the same but sort of different in mutual domestic abuse cases - both of them are victims and both of them are abusers. The circumstances and mindsets that lead people into these sorts of relationships is usually pretty tragic and I don't think being an abuser negates someone also being a victim. I think the two of them have made a HUGE mess.

Yes I guess so. I feel like maybe in Depps case that he doesn't mix well with the partying lifestyle and alcohol/drugs in general and maybe that's why he had a calmer relationship with Vanessa Paradis and Winona Ryder but an "allegedly" more fiery relationship with Kate Moss - I know the actual abuse allegations are just accusations so I'm not even talking about that but there were reports back then of him thrashing hotel rooms and having verbally aggressive arguments with Kate, I think being with Kate was much more on the party scene as well.

Actually just to add when I say the victim, I meant that there wasn't The Victim and The abuser, if you know what i mean?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes I guess so. I feel like maybe in Depps case that he doesn't mix well with the partying lifestyle and alcohol/drugs in general and maybe that's why he had a calmer relationship with Vanessa Paradis and Winona Ryder but an "allegedly" more fiery relationship with Kate Moss - I know the actual abuse allegations are just accusations so I'm not even talking about that but there were reports back then of him thrashing hotel rooms and having verbally aggressive arguments with Kate, I think being with Kate was much more on the party scene as well.

Actually just to add when I say the victim, I meant that there was The Victim and The abuser, if you know what i mean?

Kate Moss is pretty well known to have had a (rather heavy) cocaine problem and cocaine has been mentioned several times in relation to Heard and Depp... it seems likely he was down a cocaine rabbit hole in both relationships. Not that substance abuse is an excuse - but I think it is a likely explanation for why some exes have said there was never any abuse and other relationships have had this shadow of being abusive.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Kate Moss is pretty well known to have had a (rather heavy) cocaine problem and cocaine has been mentioned several times in relation to Heard and Depp... it seems likely he was down a cocaine rabbit hole in both relationships. Not that substance abuse is an excuse - but I think it is a likely explanation for why some exes have said there was never any abuse and other relationships have had this shadow of being abusive.

Oh yes it's absolutely not an excuse but a possible reason why there are different versions of Depp in relationships

[Tom4784]

Both sides'ing the issue doesn't feel right though. We know Depp struggling with substance abuse, we know Amber Heard as a manipulator. We also know that Johnny Depp wanted to change and improve the nature of their relationship and Amber Heard did not. My guess is that she found it easier to get into his head when he was high and/or drunk.

They both did wrong, but I just can't say the blame is equal.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Both sides'ing the issue doesn't feel right though. We know Depp struggling with substance abuse, we know Amber Heard as a manipulator. We also know that Johnny Depp wanted to change and improve the nature of their relationship and Amber Heard did not. My guess is that she found it easier to get into his head when he was high and/or drunk.

They both did wrong, but I just can't say the blame is equal.

Do we really know all that though? We have snippets of a look into their lives from a few recordings and what they chose to say themselves. I would say they are both to blame

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Do we really know all that though? We have snippets of a look into their lives from a few recordings and what they chose to say themselves. I would say they are both to blame

Snippets can be revealing though, especially when we do know the context.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Snippets can be revealing though, especially when we do know the context.

I think we've arrived at a stalemate on this one

[Marsh.]

I get a really bad feeling about where this is all headed tbqh. Which is a damn shame.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I get a really bad feeling about where this is all headed tbqh. Which is a damn shame.

Where is it headed do you think?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Where is it headed do you think?

Suicide. :/

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Suicide. :/

Oh. I hope that's not the case

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

They both did wrong, but I just can't say the blame is equal.

In what world though are the options always (or, really, EVER) 100% one, 100% the other, or square in the middle? I agree that Amber Heard seems like a nightmare, she may well have been the "worse" of the two in the relationship, but his actions are still his own.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Suicide. :/

...that would obviously be awful, just such a tragic thing.....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Suicide. :/

Hmm. But I feel like this edges a little close to "suicide as threat". Obviously not exactly the same thing because as far as we know you're not Johnny Depp... but I feel like it's in the same general semantic area as ["You can't do X, Y, Z or I'll kill myself!"] which is itself a well established emotional abuse/manipulation tactic. No one is ever "responsible" for another person's decision to take their own life.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hmm. But I feel like this edges a little close to "suicide as threat". Obviously not exactly the same thing because as far as we know you're not Johnny Depp... but I feel like it's in the same general semantic area as ["You can't do X, Y, Z or I'll kill myself!"] which is itself a well established emotional abuse/manipulation tactic. No one is ever "responsible" for another person's decision to take their own life.

What?

[Marsh.]

I literally said I get a bad feeling about where his mess of a life is headed. I haven't blamed anyone for anything that hasn't happened. Try again.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I literally said I get a bad feeling about where his mess of a life is headed. I haven't blamed anyone for anything that hasn't happened. Try again.

No ta

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

In what world though are the options always (or, really, EVER) 100% one, 100% the other, or square in the middle? I agree that Amber Heard seems like a nightmare, she may well have been the "worse" of the two in the relationship, but his actions are still his own.

I'm not saying he is 100% innocent, never have but it's clear that she holds more of the blame as the main abuser here. He shouldn't have lashed out, but I can't call him an abuser for doing so if he was being abused himself, which is fairly evident he was. I wouldn't call a woman in his position an abuser so it would be hypocritical of me to make out that he's as much of an abuser as she is.

Coercive and mental abuse is a terrible thing and Amber Heard is a whole bunch of red flags in that regard, with everything we know now. It doesn't make his actions right, it never will, but people who are abused can snap.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm not saying he is 100% innocent, never have but it's clear that she holds more of the blame as the main abuser here. He shouldn't have lashed out, but I can't call him an abuser for doing so if he was being abused himself, which is fairly evident he was. I wouldn't call a woman in his position an abuser so it would be hypocritical of me to make out that he's as much of an abuser as she is.

Coercive and mental abuse is a terrible thing and Amber Heard is a whole bunch of red flags in that regard, with everything we know now. It doesn't make his actions right, it never will, but people who are abused can snap.

Even after the verdict you're still creating your own narrative.
We've heard him ranting at here in covert footage, why would an abuser do that? Heard testimony from friends of hers that that was not an isolated incident and they had experienced these outbursts too.
That to me does not suggest it was some downtrodden partner snapping..

There may be other factors we are not aware of that prevent details of past relationships coming to light, prenuptial agreements or gagging orders, which to me are a form of coercive control in themselves.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Even after the verdict you're still creating your own narrative.
We've heard him ranting at here in covert footage, why would an abuser do that? Heard testimony from friends of hers that that was not an isolated incident and they had experienced these outbursts too.
That to me does not suggest it was some downtrodden partner snapping..

There may be other factors we are not aware of that prevent details of past relationships coming to light, prenuptial agreements or gagging orders, which to me are a form of coercive control in themselves.

I'm not creating anything, you simply have an incorrect assumption of what the outcome of this case means.

Very little would overcome Amber Heard appropriating rape stories to make herself look like a victim and basically goading Johnny Depp by telling him no one would believe him on tape. Neither are the actions of victims. The fact that we know that Depp tried to remedy the situation while Heard tried to keep things as they were is another strike against her.

Would you be defending Amber Heard's action if she was a man that had lied about being raped? That had told a woman that no one would believe her if she went public with what he had done? I don't think so. The difference is my opinion would remain the same regardless.