[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Cherie

sorry cant have bacon its full of salt and carciogenics



my motto is you can literally eat anything if you do it in moderation, and take a reasonable about of exercise

That’s the old fashioned theory ...
my mum was 86... her dad was 88 ...


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[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes snacks.. a chip butty isn't a snack, it's a lunch. Who said the bread had to be white?



No strangely the article didn't mention chip butties because it not weirdly obsessive about every carb, just cutting out the very obvious sugars in your diet would be enough to reverse pre diabetes.



'Tis not the sweeties' that's what you said, the article clearly states it very much is sweeties. My point is if you cut out the 2 sugars in your coffees and other sugary snacks the odd sarnie is irrelevant.

Nobody suggested living on chip butties :/

Oddly enough I’ve dropped from 6 coffees (one sugar each ) down to just ONE coffee ( or tea ) per day !!


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[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yes snacks.. a chip butty isn't a snack, it's a lunch. Who said the bread had to be white?

No strangely the article didn't mention chip butties because it not weirdly obsessive about every carb, just cutting out the very obvious sugars in your diet would be enough to reverse pre diabetes.

'Tis not the sweeties' that's what you said, the article clearly states it very much is sweeties. My point is if you cut out the 2 sugars in your coffees and other sugary snacks the odd sarnie is irrelevant.
Nobody suggested living on chip butties :/

For most people, it's not the sweeties because people don't eat a plate of sweets for their dinner. They do sit and eat a plate of empty savoury carbs for their dinner.

I'm not sure what's complicated about this.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Oddly enough I’ve dropped from 6 coffees (one sugar each ) down to just ONE coffee ( or tea ) per day !!


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I dropped from about 8 coffees a day ( ) when I worked 12 hour retail management shifts to just two, a morning double espresso and an evening latte, now that I work office hours (currently from home). I have to say, I do feel quite a bit less jittery for it.

tbf like I said though, you don't have to have sugar in every cup, I used to have two sugars in my first morning coffee and then none in the rest. Have to have milk though. A co-worker tried to get me into "just coffee" but I can't do it. Not manly enough.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

For most people, it's not the sweeties because people don't eat a plate of sweets for their dinner. They do sit and eat a plate of empty savoury carbs for their dinner.

I'm not sure what's complicated about this.

My God you are going to labour this point like you do every time someone dares to counter your view... based on nothing but your musings as per.
What is NOT complicated about this is the amount of sugar in grams per 100g, therefore you could have a sandwich for dinner and there would at most be the equivalent of perhaps 1 biscuit.
Not a plate of biscuits... yes starchy carbs have sugar in and, if you were a diabetic along with sugar intake you may have to monitor that more closely. However, if only in the pre diabetic state reducing actual sugar would be enough to avoid spikes and maintain normal blood sugar levels.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Zizu

That’s the old fashioned theory ...
my mum was 86... her dad was 88 ...


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It might be old fashioned but historically type 2 diabetes was not prevalent in the population and they ate carbs! ...over eating plays it’s part, the UK is one of the fattest nations in Europe and has the prevalence of diabetes to match it, Covid deaths and the correlation with the number of people with diabetes cannot be ignored

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

My God you are going to labour this point like you do every time someone dares to counter your view... based on nothing but your musings as per.

I'm going to continually correct your frequent misinterpretation and seeming inability to understand things I say and your insistance on "reframing them" as your own flawed interpretation, yes.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It might be old fashioned but historically type 2 diabetes was not prevalent in the population and they ate carbs! ...over eating plays it’s part, the UK is one of the fattest nations in Europe and has the prevalence of diabetes to match it, Covid deaths and the correlation with the number of people with diabetes cannot be ignored

It's down to cost and availability really; historically most people didn't over-eat anything because it wasn't there to over-eat. Things like high sugar content and (especially) HFCS in the US are massive problems when it comes to obesity, but carb-bulking is also a huge part of the problem no matter how much certain Kizzies want to insist that you can eat as many sandwiches as you want so long as you lay off the Haribo. It's widely accepted that huge servings of carb-based snacks are a major component of the obesity crisis, over and above just high sugar/high fat, because basically overloading on those empty carbs is what results in repeated hunger, much moreso than low-volume high-energy foods. Willpower is obviously part of the equation but instinct is a MASSIVE counter to willpower, and it's much harder for people to resist over-eating and snacking if their body is screaming at them that they need more carbs.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm going to continually correct your frequent misinterpretation and seeming inability to understand things I say and your insistance on "reframing them" as your own flawed interpretation, yes.

You are going to continue to labour your 'advice' that is contrary to that of the experts as seen in the link I posted
That's fine. I'll leave it there.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You are going to continue to labour your 'advice' that is contrary to that of the experts as seen in the link I posted

Except that it isn't. It may be additional, but it certainly isn't contradictory.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's down to cost and availability really; historically most people didn't over-eat anything because it wasn't there to over-eat. Things like high sugar content and (especially) HFCS in the US are massive problems when it comes to obesity, but carb-bulking is also a huge part of the problem no matter how much certain Kizzies want to insist that you can eat as many sandwiches as you want so long as you lay off the Haribo. It's widely accepted that huge servings of carb-based snacks are a major component of the obesity crisis, over and above just high sugar/high fat, because basically overloading on those empty carbs is what results in repeated hunger, much moreso than low-volume high-energy foods. Willpower is obviously part of the equation but instinct is a MASSIVE counter to willpower, and it's much harder for people to resist over-eating and snacking if their body is screaming at them that they need more carbs.

Dear me...where is your evidence for your claims or have we to change your name to toy professor?...

I always back up my points with relevant material, where's yours??

And yes... if you lay off the haribo you can have a sandwich, nobody said anything about a full loaf! :/

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Except that it isn't. It may be additional, but it certainly isn't contradictory.

You suggested sweeties are not the major factor here...imo and as stated in the information I posted they are.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Dear me...where is your evidence for your claims or have we to change your name to toy professor?...

I always back up my points with relevant material, where's yours??

Yet more ad hominem . Which prompts me to not really be all that arsed with digging deep for sources so I just clicked the first one on google.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-to...s-and-diabetes

"All the carbohydrates you eat and drink are broken down into glucose. The type, and amount, you consume can make a difference to your blood glucose levels and diabetes management"

"For example, one person trying to lose weight and manage their blood glucose levels on a low-carb diet would restrict their carb intake, while another person who is happy with their weight may decide to eat more healthy carbs. The total amount of carbohydrate eaten will have the biggest effect on your glucose levels after eating"

"Learn about which foods contain carbohydrates, how to estimate carbohydrate portions and how to monitor their effect on blood glucose levels."

"Generally, lower GI foods can be useful for managing blood glucose levels. More importantly for overall health, choosing foods that are high in fibre and wholegrains instead of refined carbs, such as white bread"

"Try seeds, nuts and pulses as lower carb sources of fibre "

"For people with Type 2 diabetes who may be overweight or obese, reducing the calories you eat helps to lose weight. This can be done through different means including following a low carb diet or simply reducing the current amount of carbs you eat. People have successfully followed low carb diets to lose weight and manage their diabetes including lowering their HbA1c, cholesterol and blood pressure levels as well as reducing the amount of diabetes medications they take."


Literally the top result on Google for "carbs and diabetes".

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Yet more ad hominem . Which prompts me to not really be all that arsed with digging deep for sources so I just clicked the first one on google.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-to...s-and-diabetes

"All the carbohydrates you eat and drink are broken down into glucose. The type, and amount, you consume can make a difference to your blood glucose levels and diabetes management"

"For example, one person trying to lose weight and manage their blood glucose levels on a low-carb diet would restrict their carb intake, while another person who is happy with their weight may decide to eat more healthy carbs. The total amount of carbohydrate eaten will have the biggest effect on your glucose levels after eating"

"Learn about which foods contain carbohydrates, how to estimate carbohydrate portions and how to monitor their effect on blood glucose levels."

"Generally, lower GI foods can be useful for managing blood glucose levels. More importantly for overall health, choosing foods that are high in fibre and wholegrains instead of refined carbs, such as white bread"

"Try seeds, nuts and pulses as lower carb sources of fibre "

"For people with Type 2 diabetes who may be overweight or obese, reducing the calories you eat helps to lose weight. This can be done through different means including following a low carb diet or simply reducing the current amount of carbs you eat. People have successfully followed low carb diets to lose weight and manage their diabetes including lowering their HbA1c, cholesterol and blood pressure levels as well as reducing the amount of diabetes medications they take."


Literally the top result on Google for "carbs and diabetes".

You are fixating on carbs again... The issue we disagreed on was sugar, or 'sweeties'.
My point was and still is to reverse pre diabetes cutting sugar and sweets would be the initial step.

I can't believe you feel this is such a controversial opinion...
It doesn't mean I don't think that controlling carbs is important in the management of type 2 diabetes or obesity, but that's a different conversation.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You are fixating on carbs again... The issue we disagreed on was sugar, or 'sweeties'.

My point was and still is to reverse pre diabetes cutting sugar and sweets would be the initial step.



I can't believe you feel this is such a controversial opinion...

It doesn't mean I don't think that controlling carbs is important in the management of type 2 diabetes or obesity, but that's a different conversation.

I think the latter is the bigger, harder and more important step because changing what you put in your tea and avoiding sugary snacks and drinks is a relatively "simple" change.

The "normal" western diet as standard is so packed full of empty bulky carbs in the form of bread, pasta, potatoes, white rice etc. that it's a harder message to get across and also a harder change to make, requiring adjustments to every single meal rather than just simple abstinence.

In other words, you'll have a much tougher time convincing someone that their pasta salad isn't good for them than you will with a Mars Bar.

Just as you haven't said "go eat a whole loaf of bread", I've obviously never said that unlimited sugar would be a good idea, on calorie count alone it would be terrible.

My point has been that - in general - most people at risk of diabetes do NOT gorge themselves silly on huge amounts of sugar every day. They DO regularly consume plates of starchy white carbs that are 2x, 3x, 4x + the right portion size.

Thus the important lifestyle change is learning how to moderate their non-sugar carb intake.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think the latter is the bigger, harder and more important step because changing what you put in your tea and avoiding sugary snacks and drinks is a relatively "simple" change.

The "normal" western diet as standard is so packed full of empty bulky carbs in the form of bread, pasta, potatoes, white rice etc. that it's a harder message to get across and also a harder change to make, requiring adjustments to every single meal rather than just simple abstinence.

In other words, you'll have a much tougher time convincing someone that their pasta salad isn't good for them than you will with a Mars Bar.

Just as you haven't said "go eat a whole loaf of bread", I've obviously never said that unlimited sugar would be a good idea, on calorie count alone it would be terrible.

My point has been that - in general - most people at risk of diabetes do NOT gorge themselves silly on huge amounts of sugar every day. They DO regularly consume plates of starchy white carbs that are 2x, 3x, 4x + the right portion size.

Thus the important lifestyle change is learning how to moderate their non-sugar carb intake.

have we come full circle to old fashioned moderation

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

have we come full circle to old fashioned moderation

Actually, no... ... I still think people who have a real problem controlling their blood sugar are safer avoiding bulk carbs completely. Having a small amount of carbs makes you hungry for more carbs and people who are already at the point of being pre-diabetic or having Type 2 are almost always coming from a place of lifelong poor eating habits - taking that craving out of the equation is going to be much more helpful than relying on sheer willpower.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think the latter is the bigger, harder and more important step because changing what you put in your tea and avoiding sugary snacks and drinks is a relatively "simple" change.

The "normal" western diet as standard is so packed full of empty bulky carbs in the form of bread, pasta, potatoes, white rice etc. that it's a harder message to get across and also a harder change to make, requiring adjustments to every single meal rather than just simple abstinence.

In other words, you'll have a much tougher time convincing someone that their pasta salad isn't good for them than you will with a Mars Bar.

Just as you haven't said "go eat a whole loaf of bread", I've obviously never said that unlimited sugar would be a good idea, on calorie count alone it would be terrible.

My point has been that - in general - most people at risk of diabetes do NOT gorge themselves silly on huge amounts of sugar every day. They DO regularly consume plates of starchy white carbs that are 2x, 3x, 4x + the right portion size.

Thus the important lifestyle change is learning how to moderate their non-sugar carb intake.

I don't think it is that simple tbh, for many just cutting out Mars bars will be enough and there would be no need whatsoever to forgo a pasta salad. For many that is taking reducing your food choices to an extreme and is entirely unnecessary.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Actually, no... ... I still think people who have a real problem controlling their blood sugar are safer avoiding bulk carbs completely. Having a small amount of carbs makes you hungry for more carbs and people who are already at the point of being pre-diabetic or having Type 2 are almost always coming from a place of lifelong poor eating habits - taking that craving out of the equation is going to be much more helpful than relying on sheer willpower.

Sorry I don’t agree, it’s much easier for most to cut down than cut out food types, that’s why calorie controlled diets work better than faddy ones like Atkins

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't think it is that simple tbh, for many just cutting out Mars bars will be enough and there would be no need whatsoever to forgo a pasta salad. For many that is taking reducing your food choices to an extreme and is entirely unnecessary.

I agree with Kizzy, don’t faint

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Sorry I don’t agree, it’s much easier for most to cut down than cut out food types, that’s why calorie controlled diets work better than faddy ones like Atkins

But I'm advocating for cutting down bulk carbs while Kizzy is advocating for cutting out anything that contains sugar... The latter results in a far more restricted diet than the former and one that is far more prone to slipping.

I think you might be confusing cutting bulk empty starchy white carbs with "carb counting"/low-carbing/atkins which isn't what I'm talking about at all.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't think it is that simple tbh, for many just cutting out Mars bars will be enough

Unless they used to eat Mars bars literally all day long, cutting that out isn't going to have much impact.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Actually, no... ... I still think people who have a real problem controlling their blood sugar are safer avoiding bulk carbs completely. Having a small amount of carbs makes you hungry for more carbs and people who are already at the point of being pre-diabetic or having Type 2 are almost always coming from a place of lifelong poor eating habits - taking that craving out of the equation is going to be much more helpful than relying on sheer willpower.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But I'm advocating for cutting down bulk carbs while Kizzy is advocating for cutting out anything that contains sugar... The latter results in a far more restricted diet than the former and one that is far more prone to slipping.

I think you might be confusing cutting bulk empty starchy white carbs with "carb counting"/low-carbing/atkins which isn't what I'm talking about at all.

. i think you are the one that is confused

You have moved from avoiding altogether to cutting down in the space of a few hours

[smudgie]

Cutting carbs or ditching the Mars bars.

As a diabetic who monitors and controls her sugars..I suggest you cut the carbs.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But I'm advocating for cutting down bulk carbs while Kizzy is advocating for cutting out anything that contains sugar... The latter results in a far more restricted diet than the former and one that is far more prone to slipping.

I think you might be confusing cutting bulk empty starchy white carbs with "carb counting"/low-carbing/atkins which isn't what I'm talking about at all.

You're advocating cutting out chip butties, pasta salads.. they are meals. I'm suggesting stopping snacking, there's nothing wrong with that. There is lots of hidden sugar in juices, fizzy pop and alcohol too so you don't have to sit eating Mars bars all day, many people drink more sugar than they eat.