[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I see how some could read it as that I guess. But theres not much 'both sides' in that at all. Its all...nasty feminists, be inclusive! Which reads fine to people if they..don't think that the 'be inclusive' thing is an issue, but when whats being expected to be 'inclusive' is..well female peoples sex based rights should be inclusive of people who are not of the female sex...it kind of puts a different spin on things. Everyone wants to be inclusive and nice. Or most do. I swear, if the demands were different to what they are, I would 100% be standing besides activists fighting with them. But I find it unreasonable to expect feminists to..be complicit (and even enthusiastic) in the erasure of their current rights tbh. I find it even more unreasonable to make out its feminists who are in the wrong and saying they are just being nasty and bigoted (as the first article says) for NOT conceding their rights.

NOT saying you are saying this ammi, as sometimes my posts come across wrongly. I am talking about the 'be inclusive' article. The second one, by a transwoman..at least recognizes some issues. The first is just handwaving 'nothing to see here, feminists should be kind' to me.

Its all such a shame. It really is. This is literally the very first time I have ever opposed 'progressive' politics. The issue is, I do not see it as 'progressive' at all, to deny that sex is a very important thing for women, and IMO quite simply, to ignore sex (or minimize the importance of it in history/currently really), means you simply cannot see/measure sexism in any meaningful way, let alone fight it!

...bib...?...ok, I guess that sometimes the same words are said or in this case, read...but those same words aren’t being heard in the same way ...and as we’re not ‘hearing the same thing’, I’ll leave it that maybe that wasn’t a good article to quote...

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...bib...?...ok, I guess that sometimes the same words are said or in this case, read...but those same words aren’t being heard in the same way ...and as we’re not ‘hearing the same thing’, I’ll leave it that maybe that wasn’t a good article to quote...

Thats exactly it I think

[Cherry Christmas]

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

Quite.

But this is continually glossed over, and outright denied as a possibility, or something that should be worried about, despite many/most women (and many men too!) knowing its not just a possibility, its a definite if the potential is there. I mean, there are some who will still claim 'that will never happen' when you bring up people abusing it,despite there currently being..well examples of it having happened. Its just such nonsense at times.

It just sometimes feels like constant gaslighting. The denial that bad men exist, if they do exist they are too few in number to care about, and even if a bad man gets you, it doesnt matter as the law can deal with them, even though the law does **** all to most bad men.

Which did make me slightly, militant in such discussions in the past, though that helps noone really. I self edit to a ridiculous degree on this, both to try and not use language that might offend (though these days, even saying women is offensive) and to try and not come across as..harshly as I might otherwise. These days am used to talking in..well feminist spaces, rather than 'in the general public. so tend to use a lot of shorthand for stuff, and assume everyone knows the stuff I am talking about..and where I am coming from too. so need to edit that out also!

I am aware that sometimes I may also come across as maybe a bit..man hating too. Though I swear I do not hate men. I just am very very aware of how many bad men are out there. And honestly, sometimes I wish I wasn't as aware, life would sure be simpler.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

I agree with this post cherie, it's just so exhausting bothering about what other people get up to.

[Captain.Remy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. It's a tough daily struggle.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. It's a tough daily struggle.

I do get this point, and agree some use it that way.

I feel sometimes feminists are written off with these people though for using examples of 'obvious conclusions' that they warned of(ie abusive men who claim to be trans, NOT transpeople) as..well we said it would happen, here is an example. And another. And another. And another. After being told it would NEVER HAPPEN and that to even consider it happening was manhating.

I think theres a world of difference between 'look, here is an example of what we said, and why that example slipped through the net so to speak' and 'look, this one transperson doing this means all are transpeople are bad!!!'

Though the difference is often..ignored. And made out to be the same thing. Sometimes purposely in honesty, though not always. Not sure if am explaining that right though..

Nuance.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. It's a tough daily struggle.

Yes it can be a struggle for many including women so don't write off our struggles, its not a competition, some straight men are struggling as well, labelling people as big terfs or whatever is not the way to end struggles, its just creates tension, animosity and more struggle