[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

There's no real way to implement PR while maintaining a Parliamentary system, in which we vote for who we want to represent our area in the Commons. If the percentage of the overall population was allocated per-seat, there'd be no way to ensure we'd get an MP for the party for whom we voted.

The Labour conference passed overwhelmingly to adopt PR.
There's only ONE Party in Westminster who wouldn't have it and that's the Cons.

PR is now used in Mayoral elections, police and crime commissioner elections, the N Ireland assembly, the Welsh parliament AND the Scottish parliament.

There are many forms of PR and it wouldn't be impossible to retain the more constituency link to MP.

The difference would be people voting and for the over 25% who never vote in elections, of whom would be likely more to vote in PR, would then the difference would mean they not only believed but would know, their votes really counted and that NO Party could get just over 40% of the votes but get power with overall majorities of 80.
That's the real scandal and should be an affront to UK real democracy.
First past the post encourages extreme governments it doesn't prevent them.

First past the post was fine when the 2 main parties got over 85%+ of votes cast between them.
Now they get on or under 75% is ridiculous for one to get absolute power.

Labour got around 36% of votes in 2005, the Cons got just over 32%
Yet Labour got an overall majority of 68.
That's obscene.

[The Slim Reaper]

Joke of a party keeps joking. Not the same as tories, though...

Good news though, because they are going to use a windfall tax on energy companies to freeze your council tax for a year, whilst the energy oligarchy make off with record profits at voters expense.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

PR is now used in Mayoral elections, police and crime commissioner elections, the N Ireland assembly, the Welsh parliament AND the Scottish parliament.

All of which are for local governance, not the entire country as a whole.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

All of which are for local governance, not the entire country as a whole.

??? What..
The N. Irish assembly is for the whole of N Ireland.
The Scottish assembly is for the whole country of Scotland.
The Welsh assembly for the whole country of Wales.

When we were in the EU for decades the elections for there all across the UK were under PR.

If Scotland were to get independence or had already they'd be using PR.
Or are Scotland and Wales not countries but just like shires of England.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Or are Scotland and Wales not countries but just like shires of England.

Politically ... yes?

The UK is, effectively and politically, one big country. Some of the satelite areas might have a semblance of devolution, but we're all governed from Westminster.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Politically ... yes?

The UK is, effectively and politically, one big country. Some of the satelite areas might have a semblance of devolution, but we're all governed from Westminster.

I doubt Scots and Welsh would agree with that.
It's supposed to be a United Kingdom of 4 Nations.

I take it then you don't like PR elections you'd prefer the shambles we get as to both Labour and Con governnents under first past the post.
With its disproportionate resulting overall majorities.

That's not for me, such an undemocratic system, sorry.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I doubt Scots and Welsh would agree with that.
It's supposed to be a United Kingdom of 4 Nations.

Nation is fine because it's a relatively neutral and ambiguous term. We're a country made up of nations.

I'm not even going to limit to four - what we call the West Country was basically once a Celtic kingdom called Dumnonia, so there's no reason that can't be one of the Nations too! Rock on, Scotland, Wales, Norn Iron, Dumnonia, and England!!

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I take it then you don't like PR elections you'd prefer the shambles we get as to both Labour and Con governnents under first past the post.

It's not about liking or disliking PR. It's about having a system already in place which isn't compatible with PR.

You sound like you have an ear to the ground, do the plans go beyond "we should have PR," are there proposals as to how the seats would be distributed in a representative manner, compared to what we have now?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Nation is fine because it's a relatively neutral and ambiguous term. We're a country made up of nations.

I'm not even going to limit to four - what we call the West Country was basically once a Celtic kingdom called Dumnonia, so there's no reason that can't be one of the Nations too! Rock on, Scotland, Wales, Norn Iron, Dumnonia, and England!!

It's not about liking or disliking PR. It's about having a system already in place which isn't compatible with PR.

You sound like you have an ear to the ground, do the plans go beyond "we should have PR," are there proposals as to how the seats would be distributed in a representative manner, compared to what we have now?

Your last paragraph is important.
It's why we need a debate on PR, all the forms of it and HOW PR could be evolved into as much as possible holding constituency/.MP connection.
Although I think you'd even be surprised just how many and the massive high numbers, who haven't a clue who their MP is anyhow.

I as a Labour party member along with hoards of other members, have fought hard for years to steer a Labour conference to vote for PR.

I've learned to PR since my Uni days.
Now I really support it.
It was overwhelmingly supported at the Labour conference in 2022.
(Starmer won't it seems, take it on for the next manifesto unfortunately).

Because the debate needs to be had, with other Parties who want it too in my view.
Plus to debate and plan a PR system which will be more ideal of reflecting seats for votes from votes cast, for future elections.

To get PR even possible, one of the usual governing main Parties needed to want it too.
Labour is now a Party that wants it , has voted for it.
We now have to persuade the leader of the Party and his Cabinet to accept the conference decision.
It seems Starmer won't for the next election manifesto.
Which annoys me but it would have to be the right PR system so more debate and a bit more time to wait is something I can take.

Every single other Party in Westminster, want PR in elections now.
Even the DUP from N Ireland.

Only one doesn't, the Cons.
Because they know the power they get to abuse while in power will never likely be given them again under PR.

For me the main bonus is NO Party under PR will then get absolute power for getting over 40% votes for them, while well over 50% of voters have voted against them.
For me, that's more like real democracy.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Politically ... yes?

The UK is, effectively and politically, one big country. Some of the satelite areas might have a semblance of devolution, but we're all governed from Westminster.

politically, scotland couldn't be more different than england, and it's been that way for a long, long, long time. Scottish people just don't think the same way as people in london.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Scottish people just don't think the same way as people in london.

Same could be said for Yorkish people and Londoners.

Sheet, I doubt even Chiswickians and Tower Hamlet Denizens are the same as one another.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Same could be said for Yorkish people and Londoners.

Scotland has a completely devolved parliament, it's as close to being independent as it could be without actually being independent. It's nothing like Wales