[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

Apparently I've managed to unite every man on the forum under one banner of misogyny, even Liam joined in to fight for women's right to engage in sex work (because it's empowering, did you know).

It's quite heartwarming really. You could all go to the darts together and peek at some empowered ladies while they walk the men in. Liam can tell them they're empowered. Parmy can go to a business meeting with them. It'll be great.

You've managed to find issue with female members on here as well over this tbf

Thing is I don't think anyone here actually cares about walk on girls, it's just the pearl clutching and false equivalences that are a bit ott

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

You don't see the issue with the concept of "eye candy" because you yourself enjoy it and you don't want to have to stop enjoying it, because you have no alternative frame of reference.

You might be a dad to girls one day and then I think (hope) you might see things differently, and when men your own age are drooling at girls your daughter's age, you might understand the issue.

Some dads still don't, unfortunately, but hey.

Again apparently it's not about age but you're portraying it as if these are very young woman being preyed on or as if they're still children under their parents protection.

If your daughter is 36 years old I think they're a bit too old for their Dad to be controlling who's looking at them or how they behave

[user104658]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Again apparently it's not about age but you're portraying it as if these are very young woman being preyed on or as if they're still children under their parents protection.

If your daughter is 36 years old I think they're a bit too old for their Dad to be controlling who's looking at them or how they behave

It has absolutely nothing to do with controlling the women and everything to do with holding the men to account when they're being gross old pervs. I know people struggle to get their heads around that, the vast majority of people (especially blokes). Therein lies the problem. I don't judge women for taking advantage of this as a source of money in the slightest, including media objectification, OnlyFans, full porn, even outright prostitution (yes they are all different degrees of the same thing). But I find it eternally grim that it IS a source of money.

I've not once and never will say, "These women shouldn't be selling this as a product or making money from it".

I wll never stop saying "I wish it wasn't a viable career path, because I wish the world wasn't full of the sort of men who are buying it".

I also know it never will be.

But that doesn't mean I'll ever say "Aww it's OK lads it's normal; go ahead."

It shouldn't be normalised. It's sad, and gross. I get why people have a visceral objection to that opinion, if they happen to have a creepy gaze themselves, or a wandering hand. Tough.

[user104658]

I also have zero comprehension of why you think adults can't be exploited, but that's a whole different debate.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Sorry what age are you 'smelly old gits', honestly you really haven't got a leg to stand on at this stage, women want to walk on stage promoting the sponsor wearing a dress, and gasp showing a bit of cleavage .... sorry Mr Victorian or should I call you Mr Burkah, but yeah its going to happen Walking around in a dress is not sex work....no matter how you twist it

Originally Posted by Liam-

The man who doesn’t think women have the agency to control their own body and do the careers they want to do calls everyone else misogynists

I'll just direct you both to the above post. I have no issue with the women who are making money from this. I just wish there was no money to make from it. You seem to be happy with a world full of the men who are paying ... ... except when you aren't on another topic? You don't get to pick and choose, if you want a world full of better men and by some miracle it happens, then there will be no walk on girls, and no OnlyFans, because no one will be reaching into their pockets whilst thinking with their dicks. It's really THAT simple.

And to say that the casual objectification of women (e.g. in this case, darts walk on girls) has "nothing to do with" the porn and prostitution industries, or to deny that those industries are rife with exploitation of (mostly) young (mostly) women? Come on. It's just objectively the reality of the situation.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kate!

I'm actually with Quantum Boy on this issue.

While I'm not in favour of women being objectified, I wouldn't go so far as to agree with Quantum Boy who seems to have quite lost his mind over the issue, to the point of name-calling.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Jackpot only has eyes for his 'arras

what a pro

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

I also have zero comprehension of why you think adults can't be exploited, but that's a whole different debate.

Most adults are exploited very day at work, some more than others....minimum wage ....poor working conditions, unhelpful management and on it goes

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

I'll just direct you both to the above post. I have no issue with the women who are making money from this. I just wish there was no money to make from it. You seem to be happy with a world full of the men who are paying ... ... except when you aren't on another topic? You don't get to pick and choose, if you want a world full of better men and by some miracle it happens, then there will be no walk on girls, and no OnlyFans, because no one will be reaching into their pockets whilst thinking with their dicks. It's really THAT simple.

And to say that the casual objectification of women (e.g. in this case, darts walk on girls) has "nothing to do with" the porn and prostitution industries, or to deny that those industries are rife with exploitation of (mostly) young (mostly) women? Come on. It's just objectively the reality of the situation.

Do you have any issue with women who perform on stage in skimpy outfits and open their legs during dance routines for example Beyonce?

[jet]

QB/TS, I don’t know what sort of company you keep, or what sports premises you hang around in to observe such behaviour but your description of men when attractive adult women appear is totally offensive to decent blokes everywhere.

slimey old geezers
smelly old gits
dirty old men
gross old pervs.
fat bastards drinking beer
sad gammons
gross, perving trogs.
hand in their pants
ogling sleazeballs.
letching nonces,

An adult man appreciating an adult woman’s attractiveness wherever they appear isn’t sleazy, it’s normal. It’s also normal to not sit there and fume about objectification, we just carry on with our day/evening, our lives. Nobody got hurt.
Sure, there are sleazeballs out there. Some. You either seem to know them all or your unhinged imagination is running away with you.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Most adults are exploited very day at work, some more than others....minimum wage ....poor working conditions, unhelpful management and on it goes

I agree with you, but I'm not sure what your point is? Everyone is exploited, so why should we worry about a bit more? I disagree fundamentally. I don't think wage-slavery exploitation is OK either but that's not what the thread is about.

Originally Posted by Cherie

Do you have any issue with women who perform on stage in skimpy outfits and open their legs during dance routines for example Beyonce?

I don't have an issue with the women who are darts walk on girls so the question is loaded. If the women on stage are dressing how they want to dress because they like it and feel good then that's great. If they're doing it to sell more records to men twice their age then I find it marginally depressing; but I doubt that's their core fanbase. Apparently there's still some confusion about who and what I have an issue with here; it's not women making money or women showing skin.

Originally Posted by jet

QB/TS, I don’t know what sort of company you keep, or what sports premises you hang around in to observe such behaviour but your description of men when attractive adult women appear is totally offensive to decent blokes everywhere.

slimey old geezers
smelly old gits
dirty old men
gross old pervs.
fat bastards drinking beer
sad gammons
gross, perving trogs.
hand in their pants
ogling sleazeballs.
letching nonces,

An adult man appreciating an adult woman’s attractiveness wherever they appear isn’t sleazy, it’s normal. It’s also normal to not sit there and fume about objectification, we just carry on with our day/evening, our lives. Nobody got hurt.
Sure, there are sleazeballs out there. Some. You either seem to know them all or your unhinged imagination is running away with you.

50 year old men "appreciating" women half their age may be "normal" in the sense that it seems like a hell of a lot of men do it and are defensive of it but it's neither inevitable nor aspirational (how defensive the middle age+ men on here are about the whole issue is ... sure something ).

The fact that it's commoditised and commercialised for sports shows? Yes I stand by all of the above. Gross/letching/ogling etc. there's no other way to describe it and -- as TiBB is so fond of reminding everyone -- it's not OK to go around telling people how they should and shouldn't think. Pls respect my opinion that it's disgusting .

As a final thought? Your argument that "no one gets hurt" by the pervasive objectification of women in society - and yes tbh young people in general in society (objectification of young men in for example Hollywood is rife too) - is extremely naive and demonstrably false. A lot of people get hurt. In lots of different ways. Mostly women, mostly teens/young adults, sooo it's unsurprising that as usual no one really cares and happily trots off to mindlessly drift through their banal evening with nary a thought bothering them beyond what's for dinner.

I almost envy it, really.

[jet]

QB/TS Goody, I'm not 50 yet. Yay! You can spew all you want about gross pervy smelly old fat gammon gits but if anyone participates in the thread and disagrees with your opinion they are being defensive? Okay.

Do you not find a younger attractive woman nice to look at? Why not?

Do you automatically think that those that do are ‘perving’ and are actually ‘turned on’ - which couldn’t be further from the truth personally. There is a huge difference between simply appreciating a woman’s assets and being sexually aroused. Can you describe to me how you assume all these men you have observed are actually ogling and letching and want to have their ‘hand in their pants’, as you say?
What are they doing? Are they wriggling in their seats with massive hard - ons? Then I can look out for it the next time I go to one of my classic car events because seemingly I’ve been oblivious.
By the way, I was specifically referring to the women at sports events, (not the more damaging issues of objectification) how exactly are they being hurt?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by jet

QB/TS Goody, I'm not 50 yet. Yay! You can spew all you want about gross pervy smelly old fat gammon gits but if anyone participates in the thread and disagrees with your opinion they are being defensive? Okay.

Do you not find a younger attractive woman nice to look at? Why not?

Do you automatically think that those that do are ‘perving’ and are actually ‘turned on’ - which couldn’t be further from the truth personally. There is a huge difference between simply appreciating a woman’s assets and being sexually aroused. Can you describe to me how you assume all these men you have observed are actually ogling and letching and want to have their ‘hand in their pants’, as you say?
What are they doing? Are they wriggling in their seats with massive hard - ons? Then I can look out for it the next time I go to one of my classic car events because seemingly I’ve been oblivious.
By the way, I was specifically referring to the women at sports events, (not the more damaging issues of objectification) how exactly are they being hurt?

Once you hit 50 as a WHITE male you turn into a gammon, a perve, smelly, someone who ogles younger women, a letch.....sorry if you just enjoy watching working class darts but its just something that comes with the territory, same with football, you tend to go home and beat your partner if your side loses, I have told Mr C he needs to do better as he doesn't seem to be following any of these rules

[Crimson Dynamo]

[user104658]

The endless, endless conflation of simply "finding women attractive" and "objectifying and commodifying women".

They're not the same thing.

If people can't even get their head around that basic concept, I'm not surprised the rest isn't making sense.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Once you hit 50 as a WHITE male you turn into a gammon, a perve, smelly, someone who ogles younger women, a letch.....sorry if you just enjoy watching working class darts but its just something that comes with the territory

Not automatically - only if you actually do those things . It's not inevitable. Not everyone has rock bottom standards and expectations.

same with football, you tend to go home and beat your partner if your side loses, I have told Mr C he needs to do better as he doesn't seem to be following any of these rules

Is this because I pointed out the actual known fact that domestic violence incidences increase on "big match weekends"? Something that's known and well understood by professionals who work with victims of domestic violence? Are you deliberately misrepresenting that and poo-pooing away actual, verified, statistical fact for TiBB points Cherie? Classy stuff.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

Not automatically - only if you actually do those things . It's not inevitable. Not everyone has rock bottom standards and expectations.



Is this because I pointed out the actual known fact that domestic violence incidences increase on "big match weekends"? Something that's known and well understood by professionals who work with victims of domestic violence? Are you deliberately misrepresenting that and poo-pooing away actual, verified, statistical fact for TiBB points Cherie? Classy stuff.

I would hazard a guess that men who beat up their partners dont actually need a particular excuse..... its not like they go home and think ooo we won today will give it a miss..... what is not classy is looking down your nose at working class people and stereotying them at every opportunity

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Quantum Boy

I agree with you, but I'm not sure what your point is? Everyone is exploited, so why should we worry about a bit more? I disagree fundamentally. I don't think wage-slavery exploitation is OK either but that's not what the thread is about.



I don't have an issue with the women who are darts walk on girls so the question is loaded. If the women on stage are dressing how they want to dress because they like it and feel good then that's great. If they're doing it to sell more records to men twice their age then I find it marginally depressing; but I doubt that's their core fanbase. Apparently there's still some confusion about who and what I have an issue with here; it's not women making money or women showing skin.



50 year old men "appreciating" women half their age may be "normal" in the sense that it seems like a hell of a lot of men do it and are defensive of it but it's neither inevitable nor aspirational (how defensive the middle age+ men on here are about the whole issue is ... sure something ).

The fact that it's commoditised and commercialised for sports shows? Yes I stand by all of the above. Gross/letching/ogling etc. there's no other way to describe it and -- as TiBB is so fond of reminding everyone -- it's not OK to go around telling people how they should and shouldn't think. Pls respect my opinion that it's disgusting .

As a final thought? Your argument that "no one gets hurt" by the pervasive objectification of women in society - and yes tbh young people in general in society (objectification of young men in for example Hollywood is rife too) - is extremely naive and demonstrably false. A lot of people get hurt. In lots of different ways. Mostly women, mostly teens/young adults, sooo it's unsurprising that as usual no one really cares and happily trots off to mindlessly drift through their banal evening with nary a thought bothering them beyond what's for dinner.

I almost envy it, really.

I will be blunt about this, so if I offend anyone then fair enough.

Men and women (even if they're as old as 90) are more likely to find people in their twenties and thirties more attractive than someone that's 50/60 years old.

That's just how Human Beings are wired in general, basically nature taking it's course.

[Crimson Dynamo]

7 pages in and no one is batting for quantum soldier toy boy

rather says it all...

[user104658]

Isn't it telling when some people believe so strongly that the point and purpose of posting on a forum, is to get as many people patting them on the back as possible. Telling and tragic.

[Kate!]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

7 pages in and no one is batting for quantum soldier toy boy

rather says it all...

I get where he's coming from

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kate!

I get where he's coming from

I'm choosing to believe that there are a few people who agree with the gist of the message, just not my... Umm... Methods of engagement...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kate!

I get where he's coming from

Kate did you also not call Pete Waterman the steam rail pop guy a hero?

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

Kate did you also not call Pete Waterman the steam rail pop guy a hero?

What's up with Pete Waterman?

[Beso]

What is glaringly obvious to me is we have all missed the point of the walk on girls..

We must look at who the darts world is trying to draw to the game, and I believe we have the darts poster boy, Luke luttler who isnt even 18 yet. So for me darts are trying to get a younger audience, therefore, these 36 year old milf, walk on girls are there for the horny teenagers to ogle , in an effort to draw the closer to the sport..