[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Do you honestly think straight, biological men who want to harm women will cosplay as a woman to gain access to women's spaces just to assault them though?

If someone is going to break the law and assault a woman, they will do it regardless. The statistics of violence from straight biological men towards women shows that they don't need to pretend to be a woman in order to assault them. They do it anyway. Time and time again.

Yes, I do, for a range of reasons, to access vulnerable women and children, to intimidate, to prove they can access female spaces, to have an easier time in prison...how many men who have raped women have been placed in womens prisons for instance? and one is too many btw

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Yes, I do, for a range of reasons, to access vulnerable women and children, to intimidate, to prove they can access female spaces, to have an easier time in prison...how many men who have raped women have been placed in womens prisons for instance? and one is too many btw

I don’t, how many fake trans women are in prison, dressing and living like a woman daily to be closer to biological women?

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I don’t, how many fake trans women are in prison, dressing and living like a woman daily to be closer to biological women?

In the UK, there were 268 transgender prisoners in 2023, which is an increase from 230 in 2022. Of those, 225 reported their legal gender as male and 43 as female.

The number of transgender prisoners in the UK is difficult to calculate, and the actual number is likely higher than what is recorded. Some reasons for this include:

Prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference and are less likely to be counted.

There may be confusion over classification among inmates or officials.

Some prisoners with a gender recognition certificate are not counted as transgender.

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Crimson Dynamo

In the UK, there were 268 transgender prisoners in 2023, which is an increase from 230 in 2022. Of those, 225 reported their legal gender as male and 43 as female.

The number of transgender prisoners in the UK is difficult to calculate, and the actual number is likely higher than what is recorded. Some reasons for this include:

Prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference and are less likely to be counted.

There may be confusion over classification among inmates or officials.

Some prisoners with a gender recognition certificate are not counted as transgender.

Thanks, maybe I need another coffee but I can't see from that how many of those transgender prisoners are actually straight, biological males infiltrating as
women in order to gain closer access to women and how many of legitimate transgender women.

I appreciate that women's safety is important, I completely agree it is. What I don't agree with is pretending there is a pandemic of fake transgender females assaulting biological women.

The reason I object is because it does feel sometimes that certain scenarios are blown out of proportion towards a particular demographic that a lot of society doesn't like or understand while other scenarios that are an issue are ignored. It's like people often use it as a fake excuse to malign a group of people they don't like and that's why we should be truthful about actually how much of an issue it actually is.

For example, in the USA the same people who say trans women doesn't be in women's spaces because they are a risk to women are often the same people who say drags queens shouldn't be around children and they're often the same people who object to specific gun legislation despite it actually being a huge threat and a huge killer.

(I am not saying anyone is this thread aligns with that specific example, unless you do and therefore I'd love to know how you measure threat and why energy is put towards one and not the other)

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

Thanks, maybe I need another coffee but I can't see from that how many of those transgender prisoners are actually straight, biological males infiltrating as
women in order to gain closer access to women and how many of legitimate transgender women.

I appreciate that women's safety is important, I completely agree it is. What I don't agree with is pretending there is a pandemic of fake transgender females assaulting biological women.

Nobody is saying there is a pandemic, what we are saying is that men are being put in female prisons, men are accessing female spaces, men are participating in womens sport and that is not acceptable, and if you say you feel womens safety is important, what would you do about men accessing female spaces

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]

Nobody is saying there is a pandemic, what we are saying is that men are being put in female prisons, men are accessing female spaces, men are participating in womens sport and that is not acceptable, and if you say you feel womens safety is important, what would you do about men accessing female spaces

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

How many would you say it would be for it to be a problem?

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

There won't be figures because of self ID and how sensitive a subject it is very few people are going to put their head above the parapet and say that a person claiming to be a transwoman is not mainly due to fear off losing their jobs, there have been a few high profile cases of men who raped women prior to transitioning being placed in womens prisons, I dont know how may women need to be a risk for you to take is seriously ...1 2..10...20?

https://news.sky.com/story/transgend...lgirl-12883405

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64796926

A double rapist who claimed to be transgender while awaiting trial...does that not raise alarm bells?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993
It is lawful for transgender women to be housed in female jails in England and Wales, the High Court has ruled.

A female prisoner, known as FDJ, had challenged the Ministry of Justice over aspects of the policy.

She claimed she had been sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner but the MoJ did not say whether it accepted this alleged incident had taken place.

The judge ruled barring all trans women from female prisons would ignore their right to live as their chosen gender.

Women's prisons can house inmates who were born male but identify as female, regardless of whether they have gone through any physical transformation or have obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The MoJ argued the policy pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".

The claimant in the case, FDJ, had said she was sexually assaulted in prison in 2017 by a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate (GRC), who had convictions for serious sexual offences.

The claimant's lawyers argued that placing transgender women in the female prisons exposed others to higher risk, citing a claim that transgender inmates were five times more likely than non-transgender prisoners to commit a sexual assault on a non-transgender prisoner.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

To put something as simply as possible:

A pillar of effective safeguarding is in identifying and mitigating potential issues before they become a larger issue, NOT a "wait and see" attitude and then trying to stuff the cat back in the bag after there's evidence of a safeguarding problem.

There are plenty of examples of it happening, thus, it will continue to happen and safeguarding considerations need to be made. That might be a blanket ban, it might be something else, but the attitude that "NAH you're over-reacting we don't want to think about that at all 'cos it's OFFENSIVE" is immature and not (or shouldn't be) any part of a rational adult discussion of any issue.

[ChristmasNeeve]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I don’t, how many fake trans women are in prison, dressing and living like a woman daily to be closer to biological women?

How would you even prove someone isn't really trans? Regardless, it doesn't matter if someone is really trans or not, if they're male in all the physical sense of the word, they shouldn't be in female spaces full stop. Women's rights matter. Women have the right to female only spaces when they're in a state of undress or are vulnerable.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

How would you even prove someone isn't really trans? Regardless, it doesn't matter if someone is really trans or not, if they're male in all the physical sense of the word, they shouldn't be in female spaces full stop. Women's rights matter. Women have the right to female only spaces when they're in a state of undress or are vulnerable.

The fact that it is just a feeling is precisely why it is being abused by prisoners

They know they cant fool people and take advantage of it

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

How would you even prove someone isn't really trans? Regardless, it doesn't matter if someone is really trans or not, if they're male in all the physical sense of the word, they shouldn't be in female spaces full stop. Women's rights matter. Women have the right to female only spaces when they're in a state of undress or are vulnerable.

I do understand this but I also know that people will piggy back off this with their own prejustice and so even if someone has had all the operations and is taking all the medicine, it still wouldn’t be enough, so that is why I think it’s a more complex issue that needs consideration for all parties involved.

I do appreciate your point and the earlier points completely I just think we need to be careful because while women deserve to feel safe, so do trans people and creating a narrative that trans people are a risk to society when it ain’t quite true is a threat to their life.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

I do understand this but I also know that people will piggy back off this with their own prejustice and so even if someone has had all the operations and is taking all the medicine, it still wouldn’t be enough, so that is why I think it’s a more complex issue that needs consideration for all parties involved.

I do appreciate your point and the earlier points completely I just think we need to be careful because while women deserve to feel safe, so do trans people and creating a narrative that trans people are a risk to society when it ain’t quite true is a threat to their life.

sorry I have to come back again on this, and it is inexplicable why the trans community are not more vocal about the people who are using trans self id for their own ends, its not about trans people, its about MEN abusing the system, not sure what there is for people to get their heads around Isla Bryson is not a transwoman HE is a MAN who used the system that is currently in place for his own benefit

[BBXX]

Originally Posted by Cherie

sorry I have to come back again on this, and it is inexplicable why the trans community are not more vocal about the people who are using trans self id for their own ends, its not about trans people, its about MEN abusing the system, not sure what there is for people to get their heads around Isla Bryson is not a transwoman HE is a MAN who used the system that is currently in place for his own benefit

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by BBXX

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

Are you American, BBXX?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by BBXX

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

I don't actually particularly disagree with any of what you've said here in principle -- all I would really say is, the politics of the issue (public discourse) should not affect, nor play into in any way, the actual discussion of safeguarding, policy and lawmaking around the issue; people who actually understand these issues should be properly assessing it in a reasonable and balanced way not subject to the often-explosive emotion that comes from both angles (and crucially, they must be allowed to be, without being subject to threats and intimidation either physical or to their careers).

That's not happening and that's not just on one group.

[Cherry Christmas]

Originally Posted by BBXX

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

Its not just up to trans people, women raise this issue all the time but are called TERFs, if the trans community allied with women it might make the issue more acceptable to discuss...just a thought, the issues affects women and trans women in the main so they should be on board with shining a light on the abuse of self ID by men