[Shasown]

Originally Posted by angus58

My wikipedia reference was to highlight the fact that not everything posted by some people is based on opinions arrived at through personal experience and knowledge, but from merely reading about something and then regurgitating it as an opinion.

I cannot help but have the opinions I have on muslims and the women in particular, from the simple fact that for some years I was subjected to the sort of treatment they have to put up with, but without the benefit of having first being brainwashed to be able to accept it.

I brought Salman Rushdie (a muslim) into the debate because a Fatwah was issued against him when he published The Satanic Verses because of his disrespectful portrayal of Mohammed - and I was just pointing him out as an example of a muslim "infidel" who had a death warrant against him. He had to go into hiding for many years to avoid being executed by fanatics.

There's no gain without pain - women in the West fought long and hard to get the right to vote, the right to the same education that boys enjoyed, the right to the same wages as a man for doing the same job, to be able to own property without having a male guarantor, to become doctors, lawyers etc, etc. If Muslim women are ever to be set free of course it is not going to be a smooth ride - they are going to have to cover ground that western women had to cover a century or so ago, and it has taken us decades to achieve the freedoms and rights we now have. It won't happen overnight for muslim women, and it won't be straightforward or easy.

Encouraging the perpetuation of sex discrimination in faith schools, however, is NOT the answer. All that will happen, IMO, is that instead of living in a cohesive society where men and women have equal rights, we will have a divided society where muslim women are still living in the dark ages alongside their liberated counterparts. There has to be some common sense applied, and banning the burkha - a visual and blatant sign of female subjugation - is a first step. many Muslim women in their own countries are fighting for equality, but in their male dominated hierarchies they are making little headway and often face harsh punishments for daring to rebel. We should be helping muslim women in this country to fight for their freedom from oppression, not encouraging muslim men to keep them in metaphorical chains.

The burkha is NOT a religious requirement, NOR is it a major cultural one. Apart from the obvious connotations of female suppression, it is a fact that it is a major threat to safety and security in a society whose citizens are routinely closely monitored, observed, recorded and identified, and there should be NO exceptions.

Let me explain something about Islam. you either are a muslim or you are an infidel. Thats it.

If you are a muslim and you decide to turn to another religion or simply disown the religion, you dont suddenly become a non muslim or an infidel, you become apostate, in other words a major sinner.

Rushdie got a fatwa issued against him because in the eyes of some mullahs he sinned big time for a Muslim, not only was he apostate but also guilty of a major heresy referring to the supposed removed verses of the qur'an.

However if you read his book you will see the more controversial part of the book dealt with a religious leader in exile leading a revolution in his homeland from the safety of overseas and was taken by Khomeini to be highly critical of himself (well it was wasnt it?) so he issued the fatwa. Which is why a lot of Muslims ignored it.

While it's all very well having the noble intent to set Muslim women free, think carefully about that, you are talking about one of the major religions of the world, which as you have seen is very backward in its mindset towards women in some quarters.

Go head to head with a part of it and it will close ranks even though lots of schools of Islam actually agree there is no place for the burka in todays society, there are a couple who condone and one which requires its use. And thats the major stumbling block a small part of it sees it as a religious requirement. And a larger section of Islamic society has it as a traditional cultural requirement.

Rightly or wrongly they dont see it as subjugation of the female rather following a guideline that their women should be modest. You can argue that their women are brainwashed into believing that view and in a way you are correct. A lot of the women are brainwashed into believing they are required. There are however some who willingly wear it.

Do you honestly think though that an outright ban will suddenly make those who believe in wearing the burka change their mind? Or will it simply mean that those women who wear it will either choose not to go out in public or even be forced by their men to stay indoors. Which in itself would be counter productive to your cause, because the so called free thinking liberated Western society would in fact be restricting religious and cultural freedom.