[patsylimerick]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Its a question of interpretation,



A fatwa, written by Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid on his Saudi Arabian website Islam QA, states:

The correct view as indicated by the evidence is that the woman’s face is ‘awrah which must be covered. It is the most tempting part of her body, because what people look at most is the face, so the face is the greatest ‘awrah of a woman

Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid is a quite well respected Islamic jurist albeit not very moderate in his beliefs.

I honestly believe that the prophets people worship would be horrified by the justifications made in their name. Literal interpretations of the moral meanderings of holy men thousands of years ago are unacceptable and illogical. Reading anything while ignoring its historical context and trying to directly apply its teaching to a completely different time just makes no sense whatsoever - and this applies to the literal interpretation of the Christian bible too.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by patsylimerick

I honestly believe that the prophets people worship would be horrified by the justifications made in their name. Literal interpretations of the moral meanderings of holy men thousands of years ago are unacceptable and illogical. Reading anything while ignoring its historical context and trying to directly apply its teaching to a completely different time just makes no sense whatsoever - and this applies to the literal interpretation of the Christian bible too.

Very true, however there are other Muslim scholars and jurists who make similar sort of interpretations, there always will be I suppose. And as you say it does happen in other religions too.

And there will always be people who follow them.

[letmein]

Government has no business dictating what people can wear and what they cannot. Now, if you're setting a law on the basis that covering the face makes things like robbery easy to accomplish in certain institutions, fine. But if you're wearing it on your own time, sorry, but you have every right to do it. Let's also get one thing clear, not all women are wearing it against their own free will. People take their religion very seriously. Should Hasidic Jewish women also be banned from covering their heads with wigs and veils too? Give me a break. Once you start letting the government dictate your personal lifestyle when you aren't bothering anyone else, you're opening the door to all types of horrible things. Europeans seriously have not learned from their own history, and Germans of all people, also haven't learned from theirs either.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by angus58

My rights to NOT be offended should be taken into consideration as much as the rights of the women who supposedly "choose" to wear the burka.

Uh, no. The world does not revolve around you.

[letmein]

Originally Posted by angus58

No danger of that happening seeing as how the wearing of the Burka is NOT a religious requirement - and I defy anyone on this forum to find such a dictat in the Qu'ran.

Find a requirement in the Bible that states that "nuns" should have to cover themselves.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by letmein

Government has no business dictating what people can wear and what they cannot.

well you can't walk around naked either. Because it offends.

So actually they do have business interfering. Sometimes the bigger picture is more important than individual rights. Everything the burka stands for is insulting to the female race.

and the security issue alone is enough reason to ban it.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Zippy

well you can't walk around naked either. Because it offends.

So actually they do have business interfering. Sometimes the bigger picture is more important than individual rights. Everything the burka stands for is insulting to the female race.

and the security issue alone is enough reason to ban it.

I'm not really sure it's illegal to be naked. You see naked people walking along a beach sometimes and in other public places. But it may be classed as "indecent exposure" at times, who are you indecently exposing yourself to when you're wearing a burkha?

And not everything it stands for insults the female race, I said a few posts back how it did become a symbol of resistance against British Colonialism in the 19th century.

With regards to the security issue I consider the right to wear a burkha a civil liberty and those can be more important than a minor threat to national security. We could do all kinds of things to improve security, but we would have to sacrifice our freedom to do so. In East Germany they had a very low crime rate, thanks to the Police force there, and the Stasi. Sure they were succesful, but at the cost of our rights and liberties. Just look at the huge debate over ID Cards and CCTV!

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'm not really sure it's illegal to be naked.

I think you'll find yourself done for indecent exposure. Unless in a designated nudist area.

[MTVN]

Yes I did mention indecent exposure in my post

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

With regards to the security issue I consider the right to wear a burkha a civil liberty and those can be more important than a minor threat to national security.

Civil? I don't think there's anything civil about degrading women in such a blatant way. It seriously offends many and, as Ive said before, sends a very bad message to children about womens role in our society.

And I do not think it is a minor threat at all. When you think about where the terrorist threats are coming from these days and the fact that identification is crucial.

Have you missed those news stories about suspects found trying to escape by wearing burkas? This is a reality.

[Livia]

I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.

To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by Livia

If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

amen

or save it for fancy dress parties.

its 2011 ffs and we don't need to be dragged back to the dark ages.

[InOne]

This topic comes up alot, and I've always posted this vid. So no point breaking tradition. Pat can take it from here.

Youtube video

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.

To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

Great post.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Oh you mean its okay for christian, jewish hindi etc women to wear veils for traditional, religious and cultural reasons but not for muslim women to do the same?

Veils worn with a wedding dress is fashion, it's worn for a day and it isn't repressive.

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by InOne

This topic comes up alot, and I've always posted this vid. So no point breaking tradition. Pat can take it from here.

Youtube video

I love his video "Your faith is a joke".

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Civil? I don't think there's anything civil about degrading women in such a blatant way. It seriously offends many and, as Ive said before, sends a very bad message to children about womens role in our society.

And I do not think it is a minor threat at all. When you think about where the terrorist threats are coming from these days and the fact that identification is crucial.

Have you missed those news stories about suspects found trying to escape by wearing burkas? This is a reality.

Yes I consider it a civil liberty to be able to express your religion how you see fit. If some Muslims see that as wearing the burkha then I'm not going to judge them or stand in their way of doing so. It's not like they're harming anyone, if you feel offended then that's fine but you dont speak for everyone.

Besides a lot of people might consider it offensive and also quite nervous and endangered when they see a teenager going around with his hood up, that can also conceal identity.

As far as I am aware there has been a single case of a suspect escaping wearing a burkha, if you ban it because of him then you're punishing all burkha wearers for the actions of a sole individual. Let's not exaggerate the number who do wear one either, they're a minority within a minority, there are very very few Muslims who do wear a burkha

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have a problem with anyone wearing clothing and symbols of their faith. The burkha is different. If nothing else it's a threat to security. If you want to wear a hajib, fine. If you want to wear a burkha, go and wear it in Saudi.

To letmein, who likened the German's decision regarding the burkha to their treatment of the Jews... gimme a break. If a woman walked around in Saudi in a bikini, do you think they Saudis would be all cut up about stopping it? It's opposite ends of the same scale. If women want to adhere to a medieval dress code (and you say Europeans have learned nothing!), let them do it somewhere women haven't fought for emancipation.

This is an argument that I dont understand. You're essentially saying "they are intolerant so we should be too"? No.

We are a multucultural country, we are a secular, civilised country with civil liberties and human rights, Saudia Arabia is not. Why should we aspire to be like them and ban every bit of clothing that we dont like, or that rubs us up the wrong way.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by chuck.pass

I love his video "Your faith is a joke".

He's a youtube legend lol

[lily.]

I think all ugly people should be required to wear them under law.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Its a question of interpretation,



A fatwa, written by Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid on his Saudi Arabian website Islam QA, states:

The correct view as indicated by the evidence is that the woman’s face is ‘awrah which must be covered. It is the most tempting part of her body, because what people look at most is the face, so the face is the greatest ‘awrah of a woman

Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid is a quite well respected Islamic jurist albeit not very moderate in his beliefs.

"The most tempting part of her body" good grief, what a pathetic indictment of the male species to suggest they have so little self control over their own bodies that they have to demonise women as the "temptresses" and cover them up in case they are seduced against their will. It's never the fault of their wayward dicks is it?

The very fact that a supposedly intelligent and educated man has actually stated this just goes to demonstrate the mindset of a religion still firmly stuck in the middle ages when women were chattels and, unfortunately, in the 21st century, still are to muslim men. Let's not forget what Muhammad told his male followers in his Farewell Sermon - that women were helpless captives in their households and they were entitled to discipline them. Over all these centuries nothing has changed.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Yes I consider it a civil liberty to be able to express your religion how you see fit. If some Muslims see that as wearing the burkha then I'm not going to judge them or stand in their way of doing so. It's not like they're harming anyone, if you feel offended then that's fine but you dont speak for everyone.

Besides a lot of people might consider it offensive and also quite nervous and endangered when they see a teenager going around with his hood up, that can also conceal identity.

As far as I am aware there has been a single case of a suspect escaping wearing a burkha, if you ban it because of him then you're punishing all burkha wearers for the actions of a sole individual. Let's not exaggerate the number who do wear one either, they're a minority within a minority, there are very very few Muslims who do wear a burkha



This is an argument that I dont understand. You're essentially saying "they are intolerant so we should be too"? No.

We are a multucultural country, we are a secular, civilised country with civil liberties and human rights, Saudia Arabia is not. Why should we aspire to be like them and ban every bit of clothing that we dont like, or that rubs us up the wrong way.

Yes, yes YES at the bolded part. I'm just glad a lot of people in this topic will never know power.

[lily.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yes, yes YES at the bolded part. I'm just glad a lot of people in this topic will never know power.

A lot of people in this topic will never know adequacy.

[bananarama]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think in rare cases it isn't but more often then not it is. I don't agree with what the Burkha stands for but if someone chooses to wear it then that's their decision.

Time and time again people pop up and claim they choose to wear it as a free choice............I million percent wrong........


Women who have been raised from childhood in a religous repressive household are programmed to be as they are in adulthood. There is no free choice about it what so ever........Damaged people are not free people.......They react as per programming (brainwashing).

They need to be freed from such and as such the burka should be banned in order to prevent new generations of the female gender being brainwashed into an idiotic practice.....

People use religions in order to control others..The burka is a living example of that........

It's time the Governments of this sloppy country woke up and smelt the coffee and ensured all women of this country regardless of nationaity or religion are saved from parenthood that brainwashes children.........

Not only should it be a criminal offence to promote the burka it should also be a criminal offence to send any child to any type of faith (brainwashing) school........

[Zippy]

Misuse of religion for political ends

The facemask worn by some Muslim women [is about] political symbolism that reflects the contempt of radical Islamist groups for Western civilisation. Today, the only forces that demand Muslim women to cover their faces are: the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the Arab World [and Europe], Al-Qaeda, and the Saudi religious establishment. All four groups see women as a source of sin and objects of sexuality, and the freedom of women in the West as manifestations of evil sexual depravity. Yet it is worth noting that leading clerics and scholars from both the Shia and Sunni communities have stated quite explicitly that the burka or niqab are not an Islamic requirement, but a cultural and tribal custom.

The wearing of a facemask is not a religious issue and the argument that it has the protection of the Charter, as ‘freedom of religion’, does not withstand scrutiny. A political symbol does not have the status of religious belief, especially if its meaning is rejection of and contempt for western civilization, and for the women who exercise their hard fought right to not be judged as mere sexual objects and the source of sin. Pressure on young girls to conform to the belief that they are sources of sin was demonstrated in Montreal in 2006 when the head of a mosque told young girls that if they did not cover themselves, they risked getting raped and might end up as unwed mothers. He went on to say that on the Day of Judgment, God would punish these girls for getting raped because they enticed the rapist by not covering themselves.

As a nation, a country and a society, we have travelled over hundreds of years to ensure that women are not considered second-class citizens or the possessions of men. We can ill afford to let culture or tribal custom compromise the equality of women.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by bananarama

Time and time again people pop up and claim they choose to wear it as a free choice............I million percent wrong........


Women who have been raised from childhood in a religous repressive household are programmed to be as they are in adulthood. There is no free choice about it what so ever........Damaged people are not free people.......They react as per programming (brainwashing).

They need to be freed from such and as such the burka should be banned in order to prevent new generations of the female gender being brainwashed into an idiotic practice.....

People use religions in order to control others..The burka is a living example of that........

It's time the Governments of this sloppy country woke up and smelt the coffee and ensured all women of this country regardless of nationaity or religion are saved from parenthood that brainwashes children.........

Not only should it be a criminal offence to promote the burka it should also be a criminal offence to send any child to any type of faith (brainwashing) school........

Sadly, those banging on about "choice" for muslim women seem to be totally ignorant about the nature of islamic indoctrination of women from birth, and the very clear demarcation between male and female roles in Islam. I am not just speaking from a standpoint of what I have read in books or watched on TV etc, but from actually having lived in the Middle East for some years as a western woman - it is an experience I would thoroughly recommend to those on here advocating the "freedom of choice" these women supposedly have, so that they could get a better understanding of what it is like to be a muslim woman in a male dominated country.

Just because this is Britain, people seem to assume that muslim women are enjoying the same freedoms as the rest of us - how blind can you be? All that is happening is that the same restrictive and demeaning practices have been brought to our country and allowed to flourish with impunity.