[Zippy]

Children don't need to learn about marriage, period.

It's something you think about as an adult when you're capable of making such a huge commitment to another person.

*haven't read the thread*

[Redway]

Originally Posted by ukturtle

Oh listen to yourself will you? How dare you stereotype every homosexual man into the same category? Yes in the past I have had many sexual partners but it's called being young and what a lot of heterosexual men also do. As for the perversions, not all of us are into 'sick and twisted' things as you seem to think. You also forget that heterosexual people are just as prone to different and unusual fetishes.

I wish you would give the absolute repulsion towards homosexuality a rest. Fair enough you do not like it, but do you have to be so goddamn offensive about it?

And many people continue to cheat on each other when they're not young.

[Pyramid*]

Originally Posted by MusicMan

I don't think gay marriage should be specifically highlighted in schools, because then it becomes an issue. If gay marriage is legal in whatever country/state, then when the topic of marriage comes up in class etc, of course gay marriage should be considered alongside straight marriage. It won't make children suddenly go "ah, I think I'm gonna be gay now!", they don't even have sexual feelings by that age. It just makes it less of an alien topic and so it's not so much of a shock when they get older. No need to rub it in their faces or anything but just introducing the fact that couples don't necessarily have to be between a man and a woman certainly can't hurt in my opinion, so long as both heterosexual and homosexual marriages are taught as on par with each other.

sounds a pretty balanced view on the subject.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

And many people continue to cheat on each other when they're not young.

You're right, I was watching a programme last night and statistically people of the age group 44-56 are more likely to cheat on their partners than 16-24. I was quite surprised by that!

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You're right, I was watching a programme last night and statistically people of the age group 44-56 are more likely to cheat on their partners than 16-24. I was quite surprised by that!

I'm not surprised as I know so many people in that age group whose kids have left home and they suddenly have no focus in they're lives and realise they have grown apart and have nothing much in common - then when someone else comes along and shows an interest and they feel 'wanted' again...................It is so important to place just as much importance on your relationship as being a parent, so you can enjoy your time without your children, rather than just grow apart

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Redway

Just listen to yourself. Are you suggesting that homosexuals are the only people in the world who have multiple partners? Or have heterosexual couples not had multiple partners?

No. You said that. You made this 'get it straight' sounding post like you were tired of fooling around. You came on with this 'get to reality check' tone.
But what did you do?
You then pretended I had made a post somehow saying that only homosexuals had multiple-partners.
I said NOTHING like that.

So why are you using a 'drop the BS' tone and then go for that kind of sneaky manipulation, false attribute, subject-changing gaming?

What I did was tell you there are serious studies showing an astonishing promiscuity among homosexuals.
This is not my 'opinion'. this is studies like this:

Prior to the AIDS epidemic, a 1978 study found that 75 percent of white, gay males claimed to have had more than 100 lifetime male sex partners: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250-499; 15 percent claimed 500- 999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners. Levels of promiscuity subsequently declined, but some observers are concerned that promiscuity is again approaching the levels of the 1970s.

Interestingly:

an Australian study found that 93 percent of lesbians reported having had sex with men, and lesbians were 4.5 times more likely than heterosexual women to have had more than 50 lifetime male sex partners

Did you notice neither of these studies were trying to tell you 'Heterosexuals NEVER have ANY promiscuity'?
Did you notice that there is no logical implication of this?
Since you are making 'Drop the Nonsense' posts I want you to see this clearly.

Now this does militate against the idea that gays are simply a 'parallel' to heterosexuals (in the sense of long-term relationships such as marriage).

Again, since you are interested in 'get off the BS' straight-talking facts here is an interesting study:

The 2003-2004 Gay/Lesbian Consumer Online Census surveyed the lifestyles of 7,862 homosexuals. Of those involved in a "current relationship," only 15 percent describe their current relationship as having lasted twelve years or longer, with five percent lasting more than twenty years.[4] While this "snapshot in time" is not an absolute predictor of the length of homosexual relationships, it does indicate that few homosexual relationships achieve the longevity common in marriages.

· The Dutch study of partnered homosexuals, which was published in the journal AIDS, found that men with a steady partner had an average of eight sexual partners per year

· In The Male Couple, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison reported that, in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven years:

Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than five years. Stated another way, all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships

So these are studies that would suggest 'gay marriage' is not some kind of 'parallel' (in meaning, in monogamy, in numbers of 'affairs, in lenght of terms etc).
So what?
Why do you say this is an 'irrational fear' of homosexuals to report these studies?
Since you need to make 'clear the air' and 'get to the reality' point I would like you to lay down step-by-step hard logic showing how this is 'homophobic' (whatever that means)?

Feel free to lay down the harsh reality anytime. Try to do this while addressing the actual topic and not 'what other people do'.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by rhino

I'm not surprised as I know so many people in that age group whose kids have left home and they suddenly have no focus in they're lives and realise they have grown apart and have nothing much in common - then when someone else comes along and shows an interest and they feel 'wanted' again...................It is so important to place just as much importance on your relationship as being a parent, so you can enjoy your time without your children, rather than just grow apart

Yeah, when I actually thought about it, it made sense. I know alot of people in that age group who've separated in recent years (including my parents) and alot had to do with affairs. I agree with what you're saying about marriage too, I'm very aware of that fact and hope I stay that way

[CharlieO]

They should learn about equally and how being gay isn't wrong and nor is being straight wrong. But there is no need to teach about marriage full stop.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by CharlieO

They should learn about equally and how being gay isn't wrong and nor is being straight wrong. But there is no need to teach about marriage full stop.

actually, I think being taught about marriage might not be a bad thing. What with divorce rates being so high and all

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

actually, I think being taught about marriage might not be a bad thing. What with divorce rates being so high and all

What are divorce rates in the UK?

In Canada they have gone down over the last few decades.
'The crude divorce rate in Canada has decreased (per 100,000 population) from a high of 362.3 in 1987 to 220.7 in 2005.'

Or to put it this way:
The divorce rate for first marriages is likely lower; “first marriages have a 67% chance of lasting a lifetime.”

I might try and google UK rates..
'The rate of divorce in the United Kingdom has been dropping in recent years. In 2007 the divorce rate in England and Wales was recorded at 11.9 people per every 1000 (1.2%) of the married population. This is the lowest divorce rate recorded since 1981.[31] It fell again in 2008 to 11.5 per thousand,[32] the lowest rate since 1979.'

Not sure what the explanation is but i always wonder if 'aging population' might factor in that?

As for 'cheating' during marriage there is one statistic that went around a few years ago:
'-22 percent of married men have strayed at least once during their married lives.
-14 percent of married women have had affairs at least once during their married lives.'

Now here is the interesting thing to notice... 14% of women.
You see the question arises?
because 22% of men are having affairs with SOMEONE??

One suggestion was that 'cheating wives' were more likely to cheat with several different married men.

But the lowering divorce rates thing is probably a good sign no matter what.
Most people will never get divorced and most will never have infidelity (affairs) outside the marriage.
That we can say 'most' is a good thing i suppose.

[Niamh.]

I'm not sure what the actual figures are El Proximo, I do know alot of people, especially alot of friends parents and my own parents who have recently been divorced. I'm glad to hear that the divorce rate is dropping though. I wonder is it more likely that marriages will last because people are allowed have sex before marriage now and don't need to get married to be able to do this like they did in the past? Or maybe people won't stick at marriage and will give up easier because it's more acceptable to do that now?

[Redway]

Originally Posted by ElProximo

No. You said that. You made this 'get it straight' sounding post like you were tired of fooling around. You came on with this 'get to reality check' tone.
But what did you do?
You then pretended I had made a post somehow saying that only homosexuals had multiple-partners.
I said NOTHING like that.

So why are you using a 'drop the BS' tone and then go for that kind of sneaky manipulation, false attribute, subject-changing gaming?

What I did was tell you there are serious studies showing an astonishing promiscuity among homosexuals.
This is not my 'opinion'. this is studies like this:



Interestingly:


Did you notice neither of these studies were trying to tell you 'Heterosexuals NEVER have ANY promiscuity'?
Did you notice that there is no logical implication of this?
Since you are making 'Drop the Nonsense' posts I want you to see this clearly.

Now this does militate against the idea that gays are simply a 'parallel' to heterosexuals (in the sense of long-term relationships such as marriage).

Again, since you are interested in 'get off the BS' straight-talking facts here is an interesting study:







So these are studies that would suggest 'gay marriage' is not some kind of 'parallel' (in meaning, in monogamy, in numbers of 'affairs, in lenght of terms etc).
So what?
Why do you say this is an 'irrational fear' of homosexuals to report these studies?
Since you need to make 'clear the air' and 'get to the reality' point I would like you to lay down step-by-step hard logic showing how this is 'homophobic' (whatever that means)?

Feel free to lay down the harsh reality anytime. Try to do this while addressing the actual topic and not 'what other people do'.

Why are you picking out homosexual partners, though? I gave you a list of statistics about straight couples.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by Redway

Why are you picking out homosexual partners, though?

Topic: Should gay marriage be taught in school to children?

I gave you a list of statistics about straight couples.

Yes, this was discussed at length. Both were relevant to topic and discussion and comparison may illuminate both.

[Ammi]

Judging by these statistics it would seem the meaning of all marriages should be taught in school

Youtube video

[Ammi]

bollocks

Youtube video

[Ammi]

Damn I can't copy it, but if you can be bothered to Youtube '10 years of gay marriages in Netherlands' the statistics lend for a good argument that marriage in general should be taught in school

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think they should be taught that there are very few gay people in the world and that if you watch a lot of tv you get the impression there are lots.

[abbey97]

I have already been taught about gay marriage at school

[Crimson Dynamo]

Look at the people who get divorced and its all about the people themselves and not the institution.

Children should be taught how to get on with people full stop, how to communicate, listen continue to learn when school stops.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think they should be taught that there are very few gay people in the world and that if you watch a lot of tv you get the impression there are lots.

I physically cringe reading pointless nonsense like this.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Zippy

I physically cringe reading pointless nonsense like this.

I 100% agree with you on that Zippy.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I 100% agree with you on that Zippy.

Joey, if you have time Youtube '10 years of gay marriages in Netherlands'. I think you'll be surprised how much it backs up LT's views. I've always thought of the Netherlands having a a very high gay population, but in actual fact the percentage is quite tiny, surprisingly. The statistics (if correct) show there is a need for the meaning of marriage (any marriage) to be taught in school. There is no need to get married these days, whether gay or straight, it is perfectly acceptable not to. If anyone feels they want to make that commitment, it should be a life and family unit commitment, not one that can be gotten out of a few years down the line if it doesn't work out as planned. Take a look Joey, I think you'll find it interesting

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by rhino

Joey, if you have time Youtube '10 years of gay marriages in Netherlands'. I think you'll be surprised how much it backs up LT's views. I've always thought of the Netherlands having a a very high gay population, but in actual fact the percentage is quite tiny, surprisingly. The statistics (if correct) show there is a need for the meaning of marriage (any marriage) to be taught in school. There is no need to get married these days, whether gay or straight, it is perfectly acceptable not to. If anyone feels they want to make that commitment, it should be a life and family unit commitment, not one that can be gotten out of a few years down the line if it doesn't work out as planned. Take a look Joey, I think you'll find it interesting

I took your recommendation rhino, I agree the figures there are a great deal smaller than I would have expected.
It was clearly a video in favour of protecting marriage in the so called 'normal' meaning of it but I also agree that if you have the ideal parenthood state then there is a lot of love and peace likely in that family unit. Most of the video made sense to me definately.

I am not against gay marriage,I have gay friends (men and women),who I would battle for the rights of and protect all I could.
I have said to them at times though, I am sort of puzzled as to why it is felt that same sex marriages need to be called that, for decades gay men and women have fought the establishment of marriage that often has led to great persecution of them for being gay anyway, why they would want to then be part of that 'establishment' by being called married themselves has puzzled me a bit.That's another issue I guess.

It was an informative video and it opens up new thought on the matter,Thanks for that rhino, I love to learn on all subjects and appreciate you directing me to it.

[ElProximo]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think they should be taught that there are very few gay people in the world and that if you watch a lot of tv you get the impression there are lots.

It might be something like 1% (and some say 0.5%) who could be called actively and confirmed gays.
this is a very very small % of the population who is (as we see here) attracts a massive amount of attention, government time and efforts, studies and cause contribution.

And yes if you watch TV you would believe gays are absolutely everywhere and a significant portion of the population.

[cub]

Gay people, no matter what the percentage, are and always will be a significant portion of the population. And therefore should have the same rights and freedoms as straight people.

They are significant. They matter.

It really doesn't matter about the % (which we can't agree on anyway).