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Niamh. · 19-04-2012, 01:08 PM

You don't need a quote Mr Lec, I've given you your own thread for this topic

mrlecturer · 19-04-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You don't need a quote Mr Lec, I've given you your own thread for this topic

Vanessa · 19-04-2012, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

If he's being used as an example of civil justice by African-Americans such as MLK, then does that not undermine the initial claim that he was a racist? Or were MLK and DeBois merely overlooking that? How? If the claim was true, I don't think you would've found a single, African-American, proponent of Gandhi.

Your ex was from Pakistan? Urdu is the official language (one that I also speak) with English, and though the language has adopted many Arabic words, some do not have the same meaning. I've also studied Islamic History, and the word kafir was first mentioned in Medina circa 630 C.E., to describe those who did not submit to the divine message. In essence, it meant - non-believer. People in the city were categorized in three groups (Muslims (who submitted), Kafirs (who did not), Munafiq (who were hypocrites, not true believers). But Islamic Revivalists in the 19-20th century started using the word it in a different light, further compounded by the apartheid in South Africa (where the word was as bad as the N word).

So yes, the word since the start of Islam has continuously evolved, taking a more negative meaning. By Gandhi's time the word was still commonplace, but still did not carry the venom it did till after his death. I will say though Gandhi's views on racial/caste segregation did change when he moved from South Africa. I'm doing a double major, in political science and history, and I've read Gandhi more than a hundred times over 4 years, but I still can't call him a racist - because that would directly contradict his achievements in India.

here's my quote : "I believe in a long, prolonged, derangement of the senses in order to obtain the unknown." -Jim Morrison.

I love Jim Morrison!

A friend is someone who gives you total freedom to be yourself.

Vanessa · 19-04-2012, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You don't need a quote Mr Lec, I've given you your own thread for this topic

That's true! I keep forgetting!

mrlecturer · 19-04-2012, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanessa

I love Jim Morrison!

A friend is someone who gives you total freedom to be yourself.

haha, Jim Morrison was amazing. Interesting fact: both Jim and Gandhi have had sips of their urine

Vanessa · 19-04-2012, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

haha, Jim Morrison was amazing. Interesting fact: both Jim and Gandhi have had sips of their urine

Really? I didn't know that!

19-04-2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

If he's being used as an example of civil justice by African-Americans such as MLK, then does that not undermine the initial claim that he was a racist? Or were MLK and DeBois merely overlooking that? How? If the claim was true, I don't think you would've found a single, African-American, proponent of Gandhi.

Your ex was from Pakistan? Urdu is the official language (one that I also speak) with English, and though the language has adopted many Arabic words, some do not have the same meaning. I've also studied Islamic History, and the word kafir was first mentioned in Medina circa 630 C.E., to describe those who did not submit to the divine message. In essence, it meant - non-believer. People in the city were categorized in three groups (Muslims (who submitted), Kafirs (who did not), Munafiq (who were hypocrites, not true believers). But Islamic Revivalists in the 19-20th century started using the word it in a different light, further compounded by the apartheid in South Africa (where the word was as bad as the N word).

So yes, the word since the start of Islam has continuously evolved, taking a more negative meaning. By Gandhi's time the word was still commonplace, but still did not carry the venom it did till after his death. I will say though Gandhi's views on racial/caste segregation did change when he moved from South Africa. I'm doing a double major, in political science and history, and I've read Gandhi more than a hundred times over 4 years, but I still can't call him a racist - because that would directly contradict his achievements in India.

here's my quote : "I believe in a long, prolonged, derangement of the senses in order to obtain the unknown." -Jim Morrison.

I would guess it's because they weren't fully versed in his opinions. There was nothing for them to search the phrase "was Gandhi a racist" on.

I appreciate your historic perspective on the origin of "Kaffir." However, I don't think you are being totally forthright in the foundation of the word within a blossoming new religion, called Islam. The Koran says some pretty dark things about us Kaffirs, and the crime for becoming a Kaffir after leaving Islam (apostasy) is death. If Kaffir doesn't have negative connotations within Arabic, then why the need for death?

I've never heard anyone describe the use of the word Kaffir (pronounced Kaffa to S. Africans) as unoffensive in those times. It was a well known racial slur.

Just to touch, once again, upon your point about why would civil rights leaders using Gandhi as a good role model, when he wasn't quite as he was made out to be(I'm not saying he didn't achieve some remarkable things), then one might ask exactly the same thing about the prophet Mohammed, Moses, Abraham etc.

When people promote individuals as important, they tend to get a rather fond whitewashing (excuse the racist pun) from history.

19-04-2012, 01:22 PM

MrLec/Vanessa

Have you tried the chat threads?

mrlecturer · 19-04-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

I would guess it's because they weren't fully versed in his opinions. There was nothing for them to search the phrase "was Gandhi a racist" on.

I appreciate your historic perspective on the origin of "Kaffir." However, I don't think you are being totally forthright in the foundation of the word within a blossoming new religion, called Islam. The Koran says some pretty dark things about us Kaffirs, and the crime for becoming a Kaffir after leaving Islam (apostasy) is death. If Kaffir doesn't have negative connotations within Arabic, then why the need for death?

I've never heard anyone describe the use of the word Kaffir (pronounced Kaffa to S. Africans) as unoffensive in those times. It was a well known racial slur.

Just to touch, once again, upon your point about why would civil rights leaders using Gandhi as a good role model, when he wasn't quite as he was made out to be(I'm not saying he didn't achieve some remarkable things), then one might ask exactly the same thing about the prophet Mohammed, Moses, Abraham etc.

When people promote individuals as important, they tend to get a rather fond whitewashing (excuse the racist pun) from history.

Too bad MLK didn't have google

I disagree that it had always been a racial slur. In fact, Encyclopaedia Britannica from 1911, in pages 627–629, continuously uses kafir

Again, generalization at its best. "The Koran says pretty dark things about Kaffirs." Lovely. I thought a little Islamic history in my earlier post would help you understand who kaffirs really were. But I guess I didn't make it clear enough.

Pagans. They were the first, and according to the Quran, only kaffirs that were a direct threat to the rise of Islam. Why? Cause they were occupying Mecca (Islamic holy city), simple as. Now go back to the verse where you posited the notion that the 'Quran has some nasty things to say about us,' and read that in the light of 7th century pagans. Doesn't really make much sense, right? Exactly. Which leads to my next point.

I'll give you my honest opinion. Again, studied it for years, but to say that the Quran promotes peace is wrong (or whatever Muhammad Ali claimed). The Quran is merely a book of signs, it was never compiled chronologically, a lot of it is vague, a lot is contradictory. For example, there are 4 verses on non-Muslims, two encourage tolerance and unity, the other two call for a more aggressive-stance. Each chapter, each verse was compiled at different stages in the life of Muhammad - and each revelation was related to the events Muhammad and his people were experiencing. Then again, to be involved in this entire debate would be never-ending.

But you get my point. One can never deduce that Gandhi was a racist, or the Quran had nasty things to say about Kafirs, especially if we are not acquainted with its context.

Vanessa · 19-04-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

MrLec/Vanessa

Have you tried the chat threads?

Have you?

mrlecturer · 19-04-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesus.H.Christ

MrLec/Vanessa

Have you tried the chat threads?

I can't find it, a bump would help. Thanks

Vanessa · 19-04-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

I can't find it, a bump would help. Thanks

I can't find it as well! Which one is it? The Capital one?

MTVN · 19-04-2012, 01:48 PM

Yeah the Capitol or Mollie's Chambers are the main two chat threads, or there's also the Lounge

mrlecturer · 19-04-2012, 01:49 PM

I understand your point Jesus. This saint-like promotion does no one any good. Cause it's simply not true. Like we don't hear Martin Luther King beating up White prostitutes? But it's true, it happened according to the FBI.

Vanessa · 19-04-2012, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTVN

Yeah the Capitol or Mollie's Chambers are the main two chat threads, or there's also the Lounge

Oh thank you! I'll check them out!

Vanessa · 19-04-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrlecturer

I understand your point Jesus. This saint-like promotion does no one any good. Cause it's simply not true. Like we don't hear Martin Luther King beating up White prostitutes? But it's true, it happened according to the FBI.

Really? I didn't know that! That's quite shocking!