[Urban Cragou]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Millions of people with religious beliefs can't be wrong......can they

Yeah... they can.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Redway

Yeah... they can.

Sorry Redway i added as you posted

[Ammi]

..beliefs don't have to be proven though, that's why they're 'beliefs' and it doesn't matter what you believe in either..it could be anything...it's more the positives that those beliefs give to your life and whether they make you want to be a better person...if having a faith or religion does that for people..then it's a great thing to have/how could it not be...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..beliefs don't have to be proven though, that's why they're 'beliefs' and it doesn't matter what you believe in either..it could be anything...it's more the positives that those beliefs give to your life and whether they make you want to be a better person...if having a faith or religion does that for people..then it's a great thing to have/how could it not be...

Good points Ammi.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..beliefs don't have to be proven though, that's why they're 'beliefs' and it doesn't matter what you believe in either..it could be anything...it's more the positives that those beliefs give to your life and whether they make you want to be a better person...if having a faith or religion does that for people..then it's a great thing to have/how could it not be...

Nobody is saying people don't have the right to their own personal faith, the problem is when they start indoctrinating other people in schools or at home that what they believe is FACT that we start to have problems.

[Ammi]

..again I think that the 'school' thing is a generalisation and a judgement...maybe some schools do 'indoctrinate', I don't know of any but that may be so...but no school that I know of does that at all...there may be 'bible stories' but it's more of a philosophy/'moral story' type thing which other 'non religious' stories are also used for...and teaching children to be kind to others/to think about their actions/learn empathy etc is a very good and valuable 'life lesson'....but if parents strongly object to any even slight reference to religion being used in any way, then there is always an 'opt out' available for their child ..it's not just one specific religion that's referred to anyway, many religions are used to explain different beliefs, which also teaches tolerance and understandings...

[Ammi]

...I don't think there is any 'burden of proof' to be explained with a faith by it's very definition, it is having faith...and nothing was ever 'proven' until science provided 'proof'...there are so many things that science has not got round to 'proving' yet and always will be...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I don't think there is any 'burden of proof' to be explained with a faith by it's very definition, it is having faith...and nothing was ever 'proven' until science provided 'proof'...there are so many things that science has not got round to 'proving' yet and always will be...

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..again I think that the 'school' thing is a generalisation and a judgement...maybe some schools do 'indoctrinate', I don't know of any but that may be so...but no school that I know of does that at all...there may be 'bible stories' but it's more of a philosophy/'moral story' type thing which other 'non religious' stories are also used for...and teaching children to be kind to others/to think about their actions/learn empathy etc is a very good and valuable 'life lesson'....but if parents strongly object to any even slight reference to religion being used in any way, then there is always an 'opt out' available for their child ..it's not just one specific religion that's referred to anyway, many religions are used to explain different beliefs, which also teaches tolerance and understandings...

I went to a Church of England primary school.Good school,Used to sing hymns every morning,Pray go to church for certain events.They never indoctrinated me because i never believed any of it at any point,Even as a 5 year old.Did'nt ever do me any harm at all.Nothing wrong with faith schools imo,Still have good memories of going there.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

I went to a Church of England primary school.Good school,Used to sing hymns every morning,Pray go to church for certain events.They never indoctrinated me because i never believed any of it at any point,Even as a 5 year old.Did'nt ever do me any harm at all.Nothing wrong with faith schools imo,Still have good memories of going there.

And if there was no religion at the school you went to do you think that you would have turned out different. Lets say that all the time that you were singing, going to church and praying you instead were learning new things?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

I went to a Church of England primary school.Good school,Used to sing hymns every morning,Pray go to church for certain events.They never indoctrinated me because i never believed any of it at any point,Even as a 5 year old.Did'nt ever do me any harm at all.Nothing wrong with faith schools imo,Still have good memories of going there.

A good post.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..again I think that the 'school' thing is a generalisation and a judgement...maybe some schools do 'indoctrinate', I don't know of any but that may be so...but no school that I know of does that at all...there may be 'bible stories' but it's more of a philosophy/'moral story' type thing which other 'non religious' stories are also used for...and teaching children to be kind to others/to think about their actions/learn empathy etc is a very good and valuable 'life lesson'....but if parents strongly object to any even slight reference to religion being used in any way, then there is always an 'opt out' available for their child ..it's not just one specific religion that's referred to anyway, many religions are used to explain different beliefs, which also teaches tolerance and understandings...

The school thing is a fair and valid point, there are hundreds of faith schools up and down the country all touting their specific version of the 'truth' and 'bible stories' are a form of indoctrination there are 101 different ways you could instill moral reasoning into a child without the use of religion, Aesop managed it.
I wouldn't want my child to opted out of learning about values, tolerance and understanding ... so if I don't want the religious spin do they then have to miss out? that doesn't seem right or fair.

[Ammi]

..anyone parent who wants to opt their child out of any religion in schools is within their right to do so..if they then feel that in doing that, their child also loses out on other valuable ‘life lessons’ in terms of life philosophies, is just really maybe the assurance they may need to show that there is indeed a valuable and relevant place for some religion in schools in the way it is taught at present ...because otherwise they would feel no ‘loss’...it’s not ‘indoctrination’ in any way whatsoever, there are many, many children’s books and stories that have a ‘moral’ value in them..those are the stories that are mostly read to children in school and the stories which are discussed with the children and part of their learning and 'growth'...just because a story has biblical names in and therefore may receive ‘judgement’ or doubt from some for that, doesn’t make the philosophy from that story any different to any other from any children’s book...


..from my own personal experience and that’s all I can comment on..?...with the very few parents I have ever met who have felt very strongly against their child having any religion in school because of their own personal views and have actually considered opting their child out...once they have actually attended those lessons and attended church assemblies and celebrations etc, they’ve then been totally in favour of their child taking part in those lessons and extremely encouraging for them to do so...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Redway

Yeah... they can.

And the proof for such a definite statement?

[Urban Cragou]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm intrigued. Please expound. Just what 'solid evidence' has 'science' in respect of their being no God? In respect of Man not possessing 'souls'? In respect of death being final? and in respect of there being no afterlife?

Science, simply has no evidence for the above, they have 'theories' or in other words; conjecture, hypothesis, speculation and propositions, with no proof.

Therefore, as I have stated, without proof, one is left merely to believe in scientific theories, just as one has to believe in God, a Soul, and an Afterlife.

One belief is no more correct or valid than the other. All that matters is that both sides respect the others right to believe.

Of course we only have theories at the minute but I'd rather take that than faith, which is believing without a shred of credible evidence. And feel free to disagree obviously but I don't see why people want there to be some deep magical explanation for our existence when *to me* science seems to have more proof.

And of course I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they want. I'm only expressing my opinion just as you are... the fact that mine's different doesn't mean I vehemently oppose anyone who believes in something deeper than the big bang theory. I'd only try to get you to view it in a different light not force you to believe something else.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Redway

Of course we only have theories at the minute but I'd rather take that than faith, which is believing without a shred of credible evidence. And feel free to disagree obviously but I don't see why people want there to be some deep magical explanation for our existence when *to me* science seems to have more proof.

And of course I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they want. I'm only expressing my opinion just as you are... the fact that mine's different doesn't mean I vehemently oppose anyone who believes in something deeper than the big bang theory. I'd only try to get you to view it in a different light not force you to believe something else.

That's fair comment Redway, and I respect you for your civility. That's what these forums are really for - civilised debate by people with differing viewpoints.