[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Redway

Just like a lot of other things that people know aren't true can't be proven. Science doesn't claim to have all the answers but unlike faith there's actually solid evidence behind its theories.

Millions of people with religious beliefs can't be wrong......can they

I hasten to add that i'm not religious, i don't go to church, but i do believe to believe in your own truths, for example one of my truths is that i experienced my dead mum sit beside me, i was wide awake doing my hair, i felt cold on the side she sat, but i also felt calm and had the knowledge that it was her and therefore i was not afraid, the bed went down (as if she had sat beside me) i felt comforted and said..."hi mum, i hope you're ok..." that was all i could think of to say and then i felt her presence leave, this means to me that there is an after life, as i experienced it, therefore it is my truth.

[Urban Cragou]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Millions of people with religious beliefs can't be wrong......can they

Yeah... they can.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Redway

Yeah... they can.

Sorry Redway i added as you posted

[Ammi]

..beliefs don't have to be proven though, that's why they're 'beliefs' and it doesn't matter what you believe in either..it could be anything...it's more the positives that those beliefs give to your life and whether they make you want to be a better person...if having a faith or religion does that for people..then it's a great thing to have/how could it not be...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..beliefs don't have to be proven though, that's why they're 'beliefs' and it doesn't matter what you believe in either..it could be anything...it's more the positives that those beliefs give to your life and whether they make you want to be a better person...if having a faith or religion does that for people..then it's a great thing to have/how could it not be...

Good points Ammi.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..beliefs don't have to be proven though, that's why they're 'beliefs' and it doesn't matter what you believe in either..it could be anything...it's more the positives that those beliefs give to your life and whether they make you want to be a better person...if having a faith or religion does that for people..then it's a great thing to have/how could it not be...

Nobody is saying people don't have the right to their own personal faith, the problem is when they start indoctrinating other people in schools or at home that what they believe is FACT that we start to have problems.

[Ammi]

..again I think that the 'school' thing is a generalisation and a judgement...maybe some schools do 'indoctrinate', I don't know of any but that may be so...but no school that I know of does that at all...there may be 'bible stories' but it's more of a philosophy/'moral story' type thing which other 'non religious' stories are also used for...and teaching children to be kind to others/to think about their actions/learn empathy etc is a very good and valuable 'life lesson'....but if parents strongly object to any even slight reference to religion being used in any way, then there is always an 'opt out' available for their child ..it's not just one specific religion that's referred to anyway, many religions are used to explain different beliefs, which also teaches tolerance and understandings...

[Ammi]

...I don't think there is any 'burden of proof' to be explained with a faith by it's very definition, it is having faith...and nothing was ever 'proven' until science provided 'proof'...there are so many things that science has not got round to 'proving' yet and always will be...

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..again I think that the 'school' thing is a generalisation and a judgement...maybe some schools do 'indoctrinate', I don't know of any but that may be so...but no school that I know of does that at all...there may be 'bible stories' but it's more of a philosophy/'moral story' type thing which other 'non religious' stories are also used for...and teaching children to be kind to others/to think about their actions/learn empathy etc is a very good and valuable 'life lesson'....but if parents strongly object to any even slight reference to religion being used in any way, then there is always an 'opt out' available for their child ..it's not just one specific religion that's referred to anyway, many religions are used to explain different beliefs, which also teaches tolerance and understandings...

I went to a Church of England primary school.Good school,Used to sing hymns every morning,Pray go to church for certain events.They never indoctrinated me because i never believed any of it at any point,Even as a 5 year old.Did'nt ever do me any harm at all.Nothing wrong with faith schools imo,Still have good memories of going there.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..again I think that the 'school' thing is a generalisation and a judgement...maybe some schools do 'indoctrinate', I don't know of any but that may be so...but no school that I know of does that at all...there may be 'bible stories' but it's more of a philosophy/'moral story' type thing which other 'non religious' stories are also used for...and teaching children to be kind to others/to think about their actions/learn empathy etc is a very good and valuable 'life lesson'....but if parents strongly object to any even slight reference to religion being used in any way, then there is always an 'opt out' available for their child ..it's not just one specific religion that's referred to anyway, many religions are used to explain different beliefs, which also teaches tolerance and understandings...

The school thing is a fair and valid point, there are hundreds of faith schools up and down the country all touting their specific version of the 'truth' and 'bible stories' are a form of indoctrination there are 101 different ways you could instill moral reasoning into a child without the use of religion, Aesop managed it.
I wouldn't want my child to opted out of learning about values, tolerance and understanding ... so if I don't want the religious spin do they then have to miss out? that doesn't seem right or fair.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Redway

Yeah... they can.

And the proof for such a definite statement?

[Urban Cragou]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm intrigued. Please expound. Just what 'solid evidence' has 'science' in respect of their being no God? In respect of Man not possessing 'souls'? In respect of death being final? and in respect of there being no afterlife?

Science, simply has no evidence for the above, they have 'theories' or in other words; conjecture, hypothesis, speculation and propositions, with no proof.

Therefore, as I have stated, without proof, one is left merely to believe in scientific theories, just as one has to believe in God, a Soul, and an Afterlife.

One belief is no more correct or valid than the other. All that matters is that both sides respect the others right to believe.

Of course we only have theories at the minute but I'd rather take that than faith, which is believing without a shred of credible evidence. And feel free to disagree obviously but I don't see why people want there to be some deep magical explanation for our existence when *to me* science seems to have more proof.

And of course I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they want. I'm only expressing my opinion just as you are... the fact that mine's different doesn't mean I vehemently oppose anyone who believes in something deeper than the big bang theory. I'd only try to get you to view it in a different light not force you to believe something else.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Redway

Of course we only have theories at the minute but I'd rather take that than faith, which is believing without a shred of credible evidence. And feel free to disagree obviously but I don't see why people want there to be some deep magical explanation for our existence when *to me* science seems to have more proof.

And of course I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they want. I'm only expressing my opinion just as you are... the fact that mine's different doesn't mean I vehemently oppose anyone who believes in something deeper than the big bang theory. I'd only try to get you to view it in a different light not force you to believe something else.

That's fair comment Redway, and I respect you for your civility. That's what these forums are really for - civilised debate by people with differing viewpoints.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Millions of people with religious beliefs can't be wrong......can they

I hasten to add that i'm not religious, i don't go to church, but i do believe to believe in your own truths, for example one of my truths is that i experienced my dead mum sit beside me, i was wide awake doing my hair, i felt cold on the side she sat, but i also felt calm and had the knowledge that it was her and therefore i was not afraid, the bed went down (as if she had sat beside me) i felt comforted and said..."hi mum, i hope you're ok..." that was all i could think of to say and then i felt her presence leave, this means to me that there is an after life, as i experienced it, therefore it is my truth.

When my father died, it was sudden and totally unexpected and a policeman actually came to my house where I was asleep. My partner woke me and the very first thing I said, was "My dad's dead, isn't he?" This - like any claim I make - can be proved.

There are genuine mysteries in life Ruby, which that thing we call 'Science' just cannot answer. In the grand scheme of things, science is but a bunch of baboons poking a beehive with a stick. We do not understand what life is, know very little about the human brain - parts of which, the functions are unknown - and still have no idea how the universe came to be in existence.

You should never be intimidated by those who may try to ridicule you for your beliefs, because they do not possess a monopoly on the truth, and neither can they back up their reasons for mocking with any valid scientific proof. Such scientific proof does not exist.

[Urban Cragou]

Edit: never mind

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

When my father died, it was sudden and totally unexpected and a policeman actually came to my house where I was asleep. My partner woke me and the very first thing I said, was "My dad's dead, isn't he?" This - like any claim I make - can be proved.

There are genuine mysteries in life Ruby, which that thing we call 'Science' just cannot answer. In the grand scheme of things, science is but a bunch of baboons poking a beehive with a stick. We do not understand what life is, know very little about the human brain - parts of which, the functions are unknown - and still have no idea how the universe came to be in existence.

You should never be intimidated by those who may try to ridicule you for your beliefs, because they do not possess a monopoly on the truth, and neither can they back up their reasons for mocking with any valid scientific proof. Such scientific proof does not exist.

Sorry about your dad kirk, I agree though sometimes you have a 6th sense and you just know, I believe science and medicine is all in it's infancy and as humans we have lots to learn, I'm comforted by my beliefs, and have had too many things happen for them to be just passed off as coincidence, I live my life in believing my truth, which is a Buddhist way of life.

[kirklancaster]

This is a very complex subject - the debating of, which could fill thousands of volumes, not scratch the surface, and answer nothing.

There are hundreds of excellent 'pros and cons' articles on the internet, and thousands of books on this subject - all written by far more intelligent and knowledgeable people than me, but read as I may, I am still left with unanswered questions and my belief in God intact.

For what it's worth, I will post on this subject soon, but for now, will anyone care to answer these questions:

If life is 'accidental' - where did at all begin?
If there was nothing who introduced the something ?
If there was already something, who put the something there in the first place ?
If there is no meaning to life, and no after life, then we are no different to other animals.
If that is so, then where did our moral code come from?

[Urban Cragou]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Millions of people with religious beliefs can't be wrong......can they

I hasten to add that i'm not religious, i don't go to church, but i do believe to believe in your own truths, for example one of my truths is that i experienced my dead mum sit beside me, i was wide awake doing my hair, i felt cold on the side she sat, but i also felt calm and had the knowledge that it was her and therefore i was not afraid, the bed went down (as if she had sat beside me) i felt comforted and said..."hi mum, i hope you're ok..." that was all i could think of to say and then i felt her presence leave, this means to me that there is an after life, as i experienced it, therefore it is my truth.

Which is all fine and yeah, of course faith is a personal thing. I don't believe in it myself (which is what I was trying to get across) but I'd never rubbish anyone else's opinions. Sorry to hear about your mum

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Redway

Which is all fine and yeah, of course faith is a personal thing. I don't believe in it myself (which is what I was trying to get across) but I'd never rubbish anyone else's opinions. Sorry to hear about your mum

Thanks Red way, that's OK, it was a long time ago, I think that's why I questioned life and death from an early age as well as exploring the spiritual side of life