[Crimson Dynamo]

The traditional school nativity play is under pressure to modernise the story and remove religious figures, according to users of a parenting website.

Parents on Netmums have given examples of characters such as spacemen, Elvis Presley and footballers being introduced to the nativity story.

There are also claims Christmas plays are being called "winter celebrations".

Netmums co-founder Siobhan Freegard said parents were concerned Christmas traditions were being "pushed aside".

-----------------------------------

The "Christians" hijacked this festival (Saturnalia) from the Romans from the 4th C to try and take the pagan masses with them so Christmas is not really about baby J and his fake birthday...


What do you think?

[Kyle]

Not reight bothered to be honest if they keep the religious elements, that's what we all know it as anyway.

I had fun and it didn't turn me into a Christian, just seems like one of those 'causes' that people like to drum up nowadays.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Not reight bothered to be honest if they keep the religious elements, that's what we all know it as anyway.

I had fun and it didn't turn me into a Christian, just seems like one of those 'causes' that people like to drum up nowadays.

This latest 'innovation is more madness, Christmas means 'Christ's' 'Mass' or 'Mass or Festival of Christ' .

There is no getting away from this - that is the true origin and literal meaning of the word Christmas.

And it's as you say above Kyle - it does not matter whether the religious meaning is observed or not, there is no need to change the tradition or Nativity Story.

What valid reason is there for this? Because it is not only offensive to all Christians, but is yet more dangerous erosion by stealth of our traditional way of life by malignant and covert parties.

[arista]

Is this the USA problem LT?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

idc: The "Christians" hijacked this festival (Saturnalia) from the Romans from the 4th C to try and take the pagan masses with them so Christmas is not really about baby J and his fake birthday...

What do you think?

Yes you're almost right. The 25th of December was a Pagan festival (and still is to Pagans) but saying that "Christmas is not really about baby J and his fake birthday" is complete idiocy.

Christmas means 'Christ's' 'Mass' or 'Mass or Festival of Christ' .

There is no getting away from this - that is the true origin and literal meaning of the word Christmas.

The fact that the newly converted Roman emperor Constantine chose December 25th as Christmas day does not alter the fact that Christmas is all about celebrating Christ's birthday.

Constantine wanted to convert all his subjects to Christianity, and what better way to do it than place the official day to celebrate Christ, on a day on which which most of his subjects already celebrated their - soon to be outlawed - existing 'religion' .

It's far easier to make horses drink a different type of water if you merely replace that in their usual trough, rather than trying to totally educate them to use another trough in a different location.

This fact however, does not mean that Christmas has nothing to do with Christ's 'birthday' - it is all to do with it. A false date, or Pagan day or not.

What's more - and you can mock - this latest idiocy is far more than than being merely offensive to all Christians -- it is yet more 'baby steps', almost imperceptible, covert destruction of our Western Democratic way of life by deep rooted, long ensconced Islamic 'Fifth Columnists' who have permeated into just about every position of real power in this country since the 1960's.

Laugh away - and perhaps we'll debate how comical my contention is on another thread.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes you're almost right. The 25th of December was a Pagan festival (and still is to Pagans) but saying that "Christmas is not really about baby J and his fake birthday" is complete idiocy.

Christmas means 'Christ's' 'Mass' or 'Mass or Festival of Christ' .

There is no getting away from this - that is the true origin and literal meaning of the word Christmas.

The fact that the newly converted Roman emperor Constantine chose December 25th as Christmas day does not alter the fact that Christmas is all about celebrating Christ's birthday.

Constantine wanted to convert all his subjects to Christianity, and what better way to do it than place the official day to celebrate Christ, on a day on which which most of his subjects already celebrated their - soon to be outlawed - existing 'religion' .

It's far easier to make horses drink a different type of water if you merely replace that in their usual trough, rather than trying to totally educate them to use another trough in a different location.

This fact however, does not mean that Christmas has nothing to do with Christ's 'birthday' - it is all to do with it. A false date, or Pagan day or not.

What's more - and you can mock - this latest idiocy is far more than than being merely offensive to all Christians -- it is yet more 'baby steps', almost imperceptible, covert destruction of our Western Democratic way of life by deep rooted, long ensconced Islamic 'Fifth Columnists' who have permeated into just about every position of real power in this country since the 1960's.

Laugh away - and perhaps we'll debate how comical my contention is on another thread.

yes top marks the actual word christmas is linked to that but that is it, santa, snow, trees, presents, holidays, celebration, family etc is nothing to do with Christianity

so you can have the semantics and we will have the fun

[Niamh.]

Honestly, Santa is the main focus of Christmas for most people I know

[Kizzy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...solstice.shtml

I don't think it's a coincidence that they chose that week to install 'Christmas' either.

Let the schools do what they like.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...solstice.shtml

I don't think it's a coincidence that they chose that week to install 'Christmas' either.

Let the schools do what they like.

Oh interesting, so they basically just hijacked the whole thing

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...solstice.shtml

I don't think it's a coincidence that they chose that week to install 'Christmas' either.

Let the schools do what they like.

The puritans never celebrated christmas and neither did half of the North of Scotland for many a year, my relations in Sutherland never did christmas due to its pagan nature.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The puritans never celebrated christmas and neither did half of the North of Scotland for many a year, my relations in Sutherland never did christmas due to its pagan nature.

Personally I just like having a holiday and a celebration of friends and family, giving gifts, eating and drinking lots and having time off work. I don't really care too much how it came about

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Personally I just like having a holiday and a celebration of friends and family, giving gifts, eating and drinking lots and having time off work. I don'y really care too much how it came about

Exactly, you give thanks for your hearth and home, for what you have and those you love.
Without provisos

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes top marks the actual word christmas is linked to that but that is it, santa, snow, trees, presents, holidays, celebration, family etc is nothing to do with Christianity

so you can have the semantics and we will have the fun

My house looks like Santa's Grotto inside - there's a decorated tree, garlands festooning the mantle and stair balustrade, snowmen, animatronic santa on his sleigh and rudolph, giant nutcracker solidiers, holly wreaths and bells and candles everywhere.

The wine rack's full, ditto the freezers and fridge already, so believe me, we celebrate Christmas with our family and friends with the same 'bells and whistles' that you do, but in one corner of my room, I have the Nativity crib and porcelain figures of the baby Jesus, Joseph and Mary, Angels, shepherds and Magi, and even the 'lowing cattle'- all beautifully illuminated by a candle in a red glass holder.

Do I observe the Birth of Christ and celebrate it amidst all the secular partying - yes.

Do I ever try to enforce or coerce my family or guests to? No never.

Old heathen you, would be as welcome in my home at Christmas as anyone, and I would genuinely love merry-making with you and never mention Christ.

But I will fight to the death to protect my Western Democratic rights to have that Nativity Crib in my room as much as my choice to have the Santa's, Snowmen, Bells and Whistles.

[Cherie]

It's our tradition though, even if you don't believe in the story, it is something that has been handed down through the generations and it is a shame that we seem to be so weak and lily livered in this country that we are ashamed of our traditions and are slowly turning into a mini America, soon it will be "the holidays", Spring Break is becoming more familiar than Easter holidays, shops have jumped on "the black Friday" bandwagon like shopping was going out of fashion or something, I loved seeing my kids in their nativity plays and have videos and pictures of them doing it, not sure seeing them dressed up as Elvis at Christmas time would evoke the same memories

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Honestly, Santa is the main focus of Christmas for most people I know

Yes Niamh - That is one meaning of the magic of Christmas to a lot of people now - the Santas and Snowmen and Rudolphs, just as it is in my home - especially when my kids were young.

But to billions of Christians around the world, there is another meaning to Christmas; the original and true meaning - a Celebration of The Christ's birthday (the date is irrelevant).

To most Christians, Christmas is not about celebrating one meaning to the exclusion of the other meaning. Most of us do both.

I am no miserable Calvinistic bible-basher just because I believe in Christ, I'm anything but, yet I am deeply offended at any attempt to eradicate the core of my belief by re-writing the Nativity story and replacing its central figures with Buzz Light Year or Elvis characters.

The 'commercial' and secular side of Christmas is not religious, yet imagine how every parent would react if - by stealth - sinister forces could be seen slowly over the years trying to enforce a situation where Santa, Rudolph and Snowmen and Christmas trees were banned?

What right has anyone to try take way any other person's freedom or forcibly alter or eradicate the fundamental core of their belief system?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Yes Niamh - That is one meaning of the magic of Christmas to a lot of people now - the Santas and Snowmen and Rudolphs, just as it is in my home - especially when my kids were young.

But to billions of Christians around the world, there is another meaning to Christmas; the original and true meaning - a Celebration of The Christ's birthday (the date is irrelevant).

To most Christians, Christmas is not about celebrating one meaning to the exclusion of the other meaning. Most of us do both.

I am no miserable Calvinistic bible-basher just because I believe in Christ, I'm anything but, yet I am deeply offended at any attempt to eradicate the core of my belief by re-writing the Nativity story and replacing its central figures with Buzz Light Year or Elvis characters.

The 'commercial' and secular side of Christmas is not religious, yet imagine how every parent would react if - by stealth - sinister forces could be seen slowly over the years trying to enforce a situation where Santa, Rudolph and Snowmen and Christmas trees were banned?

What right has anyone to try take way any other person's freedom or forcibly alter or eradicate the fundamental core of their belief system?

All the Christians i have ever met, and i have met a fair few, maybe go to a midnight mass, some even to church on the day for 20 mins and after that get wired in to the pagan side of things for the duration.

They spend far more time shopping for gifts than thinking about baby jesus and his naughty mum.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The puritans never celebrated christmas and neither did half of the North of Scotland for many a year, my relations in Sutherland never did christmas due to its pagan nature.

OFFS - Christmas has no 'Pagan Nature' no more than 'Paganism' has a Christian nature.

You already know yourself - and I have also explained - why Constantine chose the 25th of December as 'Christmas' day, so although the other things you state may be facts, they are built on a foundation of fallacy.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

All the Christians i have ever met, and i have met a fair few, maybe go to a midnight mass, some even to church on the day for 20 mins and after that get wired in to the pagan side of things for the duration.

They spend far more time shopping for gifts than thinking about baby jesus and his naughty mum.

You are virtually paraphrasing what I have already said. Although it's hardly factual to be calling it the 'Pagan side'. The celebration of Christmas - as it is now - has its roots in many different traditions of which paganism is just a part.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It's our tradition though, even if you don't believe in the story, it is something that has been handed down through the generations and it is a shame that we seem to be so weak and lily livered in this country that we are ashamed of our traditions and are slowly turning into a mini America, soon it will be "the holidays", Spring Break is becoming more familiar than Easter holidays, shops have jumped on "the black Friday" bandwagon like shopping was going out of fashion or something, I loved seeing my kids in their nativity plays and have videos and pictures of them doing it, not sure seeing them dressed up as Elvis at Christmas time would evoke the same memories

Well put Cherie.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The puritans never celebrated christmas and neither did half of the North of Scotland for many a year, my relations in Sutherland never did christmas due to its pagan nature.

Mainly because of it was seen a throwback to ungodly Catholic displays of unnecessary extravagance though, as far as I know there was never any real qualms over its paganism

[Josy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It's our tradition though, even if you don't believe in the story, it is something that has been handed down through the generations and it is a shame that we seem to be so weak and lily livered in this country that we are ashamed of our traditions and are slowly turning into a mini America, soon it will be "the holidays", Spring Break is becoming more familiar than Easter holidays, shops have jumped on "the black Friday" bandwagon like shopping was going out of fashion or something, I loved seeing my kids in their nativity plays and have videos and pictures of them doing it, not sure seeing them dressed up as Elvis at Christmas time would evoke the same memories

Fantastic post Cherie

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Mainly because of it was seen a throwback to ungodly Catholic displays of unnecessary extravagance though, as far as I know there was never any real qualms over its paganism

that's right blame the papes


actually, yes lets

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Mainly because of it was seen a throwback to ungodly Catholic displays of unnecessary extravagance though, as far as I know there was never any real qualms over its paganism

'The truth is out there' - and MTVN just said it. The aversion was due to Catholicism not Paganism.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

'The truth is out there' - and MTVN just said it. The aversion was due to Catholicism not Paganism.

Thats what I love about the Christians, they love splitting up and then hating on each other

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Thats what I love about the Christians, they love splitting up and then hating on each other