[Amy Jade]

I hope he is caught and tortured not killed, he needs to be punished not put out of his misery.

In defense of his family they may well have come forward ages ago but the goverment wanted to keep it hush hush. If they did know though and kept quiet they are disgusting and should be deported.

[arista]

[waterhog]

i am going to do a poem on this guy. its brewing.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I strongly disagree with all the posts in this thread that's that the family should stand accused and/or face some sort of punishment because of guilt by association. This man doesn't speak for his family and, unless there's evidence to suggest otherwise, his family should be free of suspicion.

If they were a white christian family they would not face such scrutiny.

Most damaged/evil men are the product of their upbringing. In other words their families/parents are rarely innocent in their crimes. You can't defend the undefendable. Honestly I don't know whether to laugh or cry at such naivity!

[Kizzy]

All murderers parents are guilty due to negative influences during primary socialisation?...

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by arista

Inadequate nobody who has to brutally murder the defenceless in order to get his ugly mug in the papers - masked or unmasked.

Bet the coward is wetting himself now he is unmasked.

Just one more psycho that belongs in Broadmoor.

[MTVN]

Obviously parental and familial influence is always important but just as obviously there are going to be numerous other factors which can override the parental aspect. A lot of well meaning parents can end up despairing what their kids become despite their best efforts. Particularly in London you're going to be open to so many other influences and when you get to a certain age there's only so much control your parents can exert over your actions. Look at Michael Adebalajo: his family were a hard working Christian one - are they responsible for his conversion to extreme Islam? Would they be pleased about it? We don't really know anything about Emwazi's family. We know they reported him missing to the police four months before it was discovered he was in Syria - who's to say they haven't been in contact with the security services this whole time? It's impossible to speculate.

[arista]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Obviously parental and familial influence is always important but just as obviously there are going to be numerous other factors which can override the parental aspect. A lot of well meaning parents can end up despairing what their kids become despite their best efforts. Particularly in London you're going to be open to so many other influences and when you get to a certain age there's only so much control your parents can exert over your actions. Look at Michael Adebalajo: his family were a hard working Christian one - are they responsible for his conversion to extreme Islam? Would they be pleased about it? We don't really know anything about Emwazi's family. We know they reported him missing to the police four months before it was discovered he was in Syria - who's to say they haven't been in contact with the security services this whole time? It's impossible to speculate.

Yes another Coward
he could not fight face to face
had to use a Car first to run down Lee Rigby
so he would then try to hack his head off.
A Public Lady slowed that down
until Armed police arrived.

[Livia]

While this man - and I use the term in its loosest possible sense - was doing the rounds on Youtube, cutting the heads off of innocent people, people who were there to report, or to help with humanitarian aid, and the whole world was asking who this monster was, his family knew. The families of the people he is responsible for killing begged and pleaded with ISIL to show some mercy... and they did not. And all the time Emwazi's family kept quiet. They need to be questioned about what else they've kept quiet about and I would be disappointed if that's not what's happening right now.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

While this man - and I use the term in its loosest possible sense - was doing the rounds on Youtube, cutting the heads off of innocent people, people who were there to report, or to help with humanitarian aid, and the whole world was asking who this monster was, his family knew. The families of the people he is responsible for killing begged and pleaded with ISIL to show some mercy... and they did not. And all the time Emwazi's family kept quiet. They need to be questioned, about what else they've kept quiet about and I would be disappointed if that's not what's happening right now.

I am with you completely as to that Livia, your points are very hard indeed to be able to fault in any way, in my view as to this situation.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by Livia

While this man - and I use the term in its loosest possible sense - was doing the rounds on Youtube, cutting the heads off of innocent people, people who were there to report, or to help with humanitarian aid, and the whole world was asking who this monster was, his family knew. The families of the people he is responsible for killing begged and pleaded with ISIL to show some mercy... and they did not. And all the time Emwazi's family kept quiet. They need to be questioned about what else they've kept quiet about and I would be disappointed if that's not what's happening right now.

Totally agree with you, Livia. I don't see that there is any way they couldn't have known, and many lives could well have been saved if they had just spoken out.

[MTVN]

How do we know they kept quiet? They reported him missing to the police four months before it was discovered he was in Syria, that surely suggests they were not aware of his plans. And the security services have known of his identity for some time so how do we know they didn't have regular communication with the family? The family aren't going to publicly out him if the security services are asking them to keep schtum are they?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by sassysocks

Most damaged/evil men are the product of their upbringing. In other words their families/parents are rarely innocent in their crimes. You can't defend the undefendable. Honestly I don't know whether to laugh or cry at such naivity!

You're presenting baseless speculation as fact so do not brand me naive when you're making snap judgments based on nothing but your own prejudice.

There is no reason to believe that the family is involved at this point, if there was any valid reason to do so then you can bet we would have heard about it by now but since there isn't then there's no point in condemning them.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

How do we know they kept quiet? They reported him missing to the police four months before it was discovered he was in Syria, that surely suggests they were not aware of his plans. And the security services have known of his identity for some time so how do we know they didn't have regular communication with the family? The family aren't going to publicly out him if the security services are asking them to keep schtum are they?

My personal feeling is that if the security services had known his identity from the off, then it would have been made public and so taken all the mystery and speculation out of it, which tends to give these things an air of mystery. In any case... if the family have not been a part of this before I feel sure they're now helping with enquiries.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Livia

My personal feeling is that if the security services had known his identity from the off, then it would have been made public and so taken all the mystery and speculation out of it, which tends to give these things an air of mystery. In any case... if the family have not been a part of this before I feel sure they're now helping with enquiries.

But MI5
did not want him public as he was to be Shot
out there,
the USA Washington post
put his name out,
now Front pages for days will be his mates
ex girls etc

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

My personal feeling is that if the security services had known his identity from the off, then it would have been made public and so taken all the mystery and speculation out of it, which tends to give these things an air of mystery. In any case... if the family have not been a part of this before I feel sure they're now helping with enquiries.

If it is true that this man had been approached by / watched by MI5 in the past, then honestly I think it's unlikely to the point of bearing nearly impossible that they didn't know - or at least have a very good idea - that he had become "Jihadi John". You're always saying how great these services are at their jobs. If the agents who had approached / watch him didn't realise it was him... Then they're not "great" at all, they are in fact quite unbelievably useless.

If everyone is so sure that his family "must have" recognised him then professionals - trained in observation techniques - who had been examining him previously "must have" recognised him, too. They may well have had their reasons for not releasing his identity but I personally have no doubt that they've pretty much known his identity since the very first video.

[Livia]

That's a lot of buts and what ifs TS. And a bit of an attack on our security services who ARE great at their jobs. Thing is, we'll never know the workings of what went on with this man and MI5. That's why they're called the secret service.

It surprises me slightly that more onus is being given to a terrorist's family's feelings when so many other families have been left bereft in the most horrible way by their son's actions. I am not of the mind that they are involved in terrorism necessarily, but I am pro-them being questioned... which is what a lot of people on here seem to be against as they view them as victims. And I'd be surprised if that is either happening right now, or has already happened. And not just his family, all his friends too.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's a lot of buts and what ifs TS. And a bit of an attack on our security services who ARE great at their jobs. Thing is, we'll never know the workings of what went on with this man and MI5. That's why they're called the secret service.

It surprises me slightly that more onus is being given to a terrorist's family's feelings when so many other families have been left bereft in the most horrible way by their son's actions. I am not of the mind that they are involved in terrorism necessarily, but I am pro-them being questioned... which is what a lot of people on here seem to be against as they view them as victims. And I'd be surprised if that is either happening right now, or has already happened. And not just his family, all his friends too.

Not against them being questioned like any family whose had someone commit a grave crime, I am against them being treated like criminals based on nothing more than speculation though. If there's evidence of wrongdoing then go to town on them otherwise it's guilt by association.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's a lot of buts and what ifs TS. And a bit of an attack on our security services who ARE great at their jobs. Thing is, we'll never know the workings of what went on with this man and MI5. That's why they're called the secret service.

It surprises me slightly that more onus is being given to a terrorist's family's feelings when so many other families have been left bereft in the most horrible way by their son's actions. I am not of the mind that they are involved in terrorism necessarily, but I am pro-them being questioned... which is what a lot of people on here seem to be against as they view them as victims. And I'd be surprised if that is either happening right now, or has already happened. And not just his family, all his friends too.

'... if the family have not been a part of this before I feel sure they're now helping with enquiries.'
This is an even bigger if...
The secret services are so named for doing things in secret I thought, why on earth would the public be privvy to anything they do?
The net would be closing in on him from the minute he was identified, naturally then his family will have been made aware and questioned nobody has any reason to suspect his family was anything but complicit in that. Had information had been leaked that those close to him were spoken to wouldn't that have just driven him further underground?

[waterhog]

the further underground he goes - the longer way his has to go for air - tick tock.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's a lot of buts and what ifs TS. And a bit of an attack on our security services who ARE great at their jobs. Thing is, we'll never know the workings of what went on with this man and MI5. That's why they're called the secret service.

It's not... It's one "if", which was "if he had previously been on the MI5 radar", an "if" that has been quite widely reported as being the case. It's also not an attack on our security services, I'm sure they are great at what they do, which is why I'm 100% convinced that they knew - or were at least close to positive of - the identity of "Jihadi John" as soon as they saw the first video.

Of course we can't "know the ins and outs" but like I said, only one "if". "If" he had previously been examined by MI5. Taking that as accurate, then in my opinion there are only two options. They knew it was him, or they are incompetent. Incompetent in the same way that Lois Lane is an incompetent reporter when she looks at Superman and doesn't realise that it's her partner Clark Kent.

He isn't covering his eyes in the videos and the eyes are the biggest component in natural facial recognition. If this man was a "person of interest" to any MI5 agent who then saw those videos (as one would assume all MI5 agents did) then they would have flagged him instantly.

I believe that to be the case. I don't think they're useless or incompetent, I think they knew he was their man but kept it under wraps for whatever reason. I don't even think that's necessarily a bad thing. It might have been a very GOOD reason. And now either they no longer need it to be secret / it's beneficial to have his identity revealed, or the cat was escaping the bag anyway.

[user104658]

As a hypothesis: they may well have been watching his known associates and, that being the case, it would be prudent to not reveal that they knew his identity as those known associates would then take more precautions or modify their behaviour.

That's just one of endless possible reasons that they wouldn't want the identity of this butcher to be public knowledge.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You're presenting baseless speculation as fact so do not brand me naive when you're making snap judgments based on nothing but your own prejudice.

There is no reason to believe that the family is involved at this point, if there was any valid reason to do so then you can bet we would have heard about it by now but since there isn't then there's no point in condemning them.

Most disturbed people are the product of their upbringing. That expression does not come from nowhere, it comes from fact. Ask any psychologist.
You are as blinkered as you accuse me of being.

As another poster has pointed out, do you really think his parents didn't know their own son, even with the mask. I would be surprised if they don't condone and support his actions. He is clearly a deeply disturbed individual - how could any decent parent fail to recognise that. More likely they are part of the problem.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Not against them being questioned like any family whose had someone commit a grave crime, I am against them being treated like criminals based on nothing more than speculation though. If there's evidence of wrongdoing then go to town on them otherwise it's guilt by association.

The strongest thing I've said on this thread is that they should be rounded up for questioning. There could be a wealth of information they could pass on that they don't even know is important. I'm not suggesting shipping them off to Guantanamo based purely on the fact that they're related.

[arista]

So he is clever - He is still Dead Man Walking