[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Joey, can you reproduce on here just WHERE the OFFICIAL UKIP Party line is that immigration is to blame for ALL the UK's ills - as you and other Labourite's keep claiming?

Can you reproduce where Joey suggested they were to blame for ALL the UKs ills?

He said most, and he's not far wrong there is he?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

People can go on about Labour all they like, however all the treaties signed as to the EU would have been signed by Conservatives or Labour no matter who was in power and so the free movement of EU citizens would be happening regardless.

Immigration got out of hand in their time in power latterly, Labour rightly has to be blamed for that.

However, not now, this Prime Minister, foolishly in 2010, promised to cut immigration to the tens of thousands.
He failed bigtime because it is probably unachievable anyway.
That is now totally and only his govts. fault, not Labours, he doesn't even have the figures falling,as Labour did by 2010 after the peak in 2005.
That is his fault again.

The point is, yes, halt illegal immigration when you come across it, he obviously has no will to put in more resources to do so, so he will need to just hope for the best as to that.
Then make full use and nurture the success that immigration brings to the UK, where all statistics show, that the benefits of immigration to the UK far outweigh any of the negatives as to it.

Then admit, as Labour and all other parties should too, that none have the right policy as it it at all and realise that divisions as to immigration are never going to bring any solutions.
Hammer out a policy,that can be continuous, fair and welcoming as to the positives to all immigration to the UK from wherever.
Stop this we know best attitude from all parties, when in fact all they do as has been shown over the last 5 years is make things even worse.

One of the first steps all parties should also take,obviously excluding the more irrational UKIP leadership's thinking currently,is to stop right now, allowing immigration to be blamed for most of the UKs ills at present.
Take any problems there may be of immigration out of the political arena with a strong and appropriate united front to putting in place a policy as to same.

Stop allowing the demonisation of immigrants and also the nastier side too of the likes of UKIP,blaming foreign immigration for just about everything.

Labour failed on immigration, the Conservatives too failed in coalition over the last 5 years on immigration and if they really try to press ahead thinking they have all the answers to it themselves now, the Conservatives will fail badly again over the next few years too.

embarrassing post. new labour are distusting murderous lying bigots....the tories have been too slow but now that Europhile clegg is out the tories can take action.....theyre scrapping child benefits going aborad, theyre bringing in 5 yrs to qualify for benefits and paying in national insurance, theyre bringing in a eu referendum, theyre tergetting illegal immigrants harder than ever.....they realise now how out of contro, this is....a city the size of Cardiff arriving on this small island every year is the road to insanity

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Can you reproduce where Joey suggested they were to blame for ALL the UKs ills?

He said most, and he's not far wrong there is he?

farage isn't blaming the immigrants hes blaming the eu and the politicians for allowing such enormous net migration

your leftists pals are mostly to blame for trying to ban free speech on the matter....im amazed you ever quote orwell hed have been disgusted by the new labour thought police and their mass censorship and perversion of the English language,,,,,their best tactic was anyone who disagrees with them gets labelled a sexist or a racist or a bigot....new labour were the spawn of satan. evil evil people spinning lies and wages illegal wars against millions of impoverished people

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Joey, can you reproduce on here just WHERE the OFFICIAL UKIP Party line is that immigration is to blame for ALL the UK's ills - as you and other Labourite's keep claiming?

Oh come on, Nigel Farage even tried to blame being late for a meeting in Wales on immigration.

I simply do not like or support the the always negative approach UKIP takes on immigration and to me, and to others,it comes across as deliberate demonisation of immigrants.

They may have valid points,as all parties do,for me they go about it the wrong way,so I have big concerns at their real agenda, of course that is only my view, I could be wrong.
As I have said,I do not myself believe any party has the solutions or right policies as to immigration.

One thing I have to give UKIP is, absolutely they were right to point out that it should not be that anyone coming to the UK can just get benefits paid right off to them.
I also add, no way do I believe either of the main 2 parties would be even now looking at when benefits could be paid to those migrating here,had UKIP not got that at the top of the agenda.
That was a positive criticism of the system UKIP made,no doubt at all as to that.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Can you reproduce where Joey suggested they were to blame for ALL the UKs ills?

He said most, and he's not far wrong there is he?

You aren't being clever Kizzy - not at all. I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question in a polite manner, but OK, pedantics aside, 'most' and 'just abouts' then.

And yes he IS wrong. But it is futile trying to debate that or any other subject with someone like you who constantly uses circular arguments and misrepresentations and who blindly ignores empiric irrefutable evidence which defeats her arguments to still post the same nonsense argument, and who still supports an idiot like Russell Brand despite him being clearly shown to be a total moronic buffoon, liar, and notoriously shameless 'U' Turner.

So I think I'll just wait for Joey's response thank you.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And the fact it's worsened over the last 5yrs... Is that 'my' Labours fault too?
The PM ramping up the pressure so all the neurotic bigots start flailing their hands in the air and running barbed wire down Bridlington beach to rescue ol blighty

yes. who signed the eu constitution who enslaved us to the eu? who banned us talking about these matters openly? your new labour champagne socialist comrades

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

embarrassing post. new labour are distusting murderous lying bigots....the tories have been too slow but now that Europhile clegg is out the tories can take action.....theyre scrapping child benefits going aborad, theyre bringing in 5 yrs to qualify for benefits and paying in national insurance, theyre bringing in a eu referendum, theyre tergetting illegal immigrants harder than ever.....they realise now how out of contro, this is....a city the size of Cardiff arriving on this small island every year is the road to insanity

I have not a thing I even want to say to you as to any topic, thank you very much.
I told you that yesterday.
The post is not embarrassing to me since I mean all I have said in it but I want no more of your nasty insults.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Not to you Josh because despite your obvious intelligence your naivety is alarming.

I don't think that I am naive at all. My area is still 96.8% white british, and yet seems to be one of the most racist and anti-immigration areas in the country.. which proves that it has everything to do with naivety, but to those who actually think we have too many immigrants. People on the local facebook page which has quite a lot of active posters on it, many have said they believe our town is only 40% white now which is very laughable.

Obviously my town is not the only one in England and so I cannot speak for everyone, but I have not yet seen a statistic in which there are more immigrants than "natives".

Originally Posted by the truth

lol what complete and utter lies....typical of the brainwash spin weve had from new labour for the past 20 years...for starters millions of net immigration directly effects the nhs the housing the poverty the welfare state the child benefits the economy everything is directly connected etc etc
as were in the eu we have no real control over our borders, weve allowed vats amounts of illegal immigrants many of whom are criminals plus we should have a points system allowing us to select who comes in

this is a total fiasco. Europe is a disaster as we see with the tens of thousands drowing at sea.....the endless European countries bankrupt, the 50%+ youth unemployment across several European nations....the EU hasn't even handed its own accounts in

ps have you actually read the eu constituton? didn't think so

how dare you or anyone from new labour call anyone racist again....the most discriminatory act in the history of this country came from new labour when they illegally murdered 1 million innocent Iraqis and they actually dare to preach about discrimination...new labour should burn in hell for eternity

I don't support New Labour at all by the way.. the new right-wing policies on immigration are very alarming to me. Also in terms of Iraq.. yes that was was disgusting and should never have happened, but it was also mostly Bush who convinced Blair (who I would like arrested) to do all of this. It was racism that led to the war also.

Originally Posted by the truth

embarrassing post. new labour are distusting murderous lying bigots....the tories have been too slow but now that Europhile clegg is out the tories can take action.....theyre scrapping child benefits going aborad, theyre bringing in 5 yrs to qualify for benefits and paying in national insurance, theyre bringing in a eu referendum, theyre tergetting illegal immigrants harder than ever.....they realise now how out of contro, this is....a city the size of Cardiff arriving on this small island every year is the road to insanity

I'll just not reply anymore if you actually think that..

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Oh come on, Nigel Farage even tried to blame being late for a meeting in Wales on immigration.

I simply do not like or support the the always negative approach UKIP takes on immigration and to me, and to others,it comes across as deliberate demonisation of immigrants.

They may have valid points,as all parties do,for me they go about it the wrong way,so I have big concerns at their real agenda, of course that is only my view, I could be wrong.
As I have said,I do not myself believe any party has the solutions or right policies as to immigration.

One thing I have to give UKIP is, absolutely they were right to point out that it should not be that anyone coming to the UK can just get benefits paid right off to them.
I also add, no way do I believe either of the main 2 parties would be even now looking at when benefits could be paid to those migrating here,had UKIP not got that at the top of the agenda.
That was a positive criticism of the system UKIP made,no doubt at all as to that.

Thank you for responding Joey and for your fairness - especially the emboldened text.

I will agree to disagree on the rest.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

" Yes because most of the anti-immigration debate is driven by racism and it really isn't as big an issue as people claim it to be. Surely there are things more important - the NHS, poverty, housing prices..

Josh, you haven't responded to my post below, but then go on to post the same fallacies in your post above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshBB

This is so awful, I can't understand how anyone can want to just leave them there.. (@ david cameron).

Seriously though when they're coming here we get tons of xenophobic rhetoric but as soon as an asian country says they're pushing boats away.. everyone is freaking out."
..............................

You really need to delete the words; 'xenophobic' and 'racist' from your dictionaries Josh.

Accepting reality is not being racist or xenophobic; it's recognising the absolutes of Science and Truth- from Economics and Mathematics, to Proxemics and Demographics.

A few points:

1) According to many on here, in the UK we have our OWN increasing numbers of homeless, destitute, desperate and hungry people.

2) So let's imagine that YOU live in the most common type of house - a 3 bed semi.

3) The average Total Floor Area of that 3 bed semi is 96.8 sq m - down from 98.8 sq m over the past 10 years due to shrinking land availability, a dearth of homes, affordability etc.

4) Ignoring Statutory Overcrowding legislation - which deems a room measuring 6.5 square meters as 'suitable' for one person and a room measuring 10.2 square meters as suitable for two people - it is possible for 100 homeless people to shelter from the elements every night in YOUR lovely 3 bed semi alone, by allowing them to sleep on the floor of every room.

Now YOU have SERIOUS problems:

5) The average 3 bed semi has:

a) one bathroom and just 2 toilets for 100 people.
b) one kitchen with one cooker.
c) only three or four sets of bedding.
d) limited pans, plates, crockery etc etc etc.
e) One fridge and freezer.
f) very limited storage.
g) only a couple of TV's.

SOLUTION:

e) Build a massive dormitory bedroom extension
f) Build 6 more bathrooms, 6 more wc's, 6 more kitchens - 6 more of everything.
f) Buy lots more beds, bedding, new sets of clothes for 100 people.
g)But don't forget to incorporate a massive upgrade to the sewers, water supply, electricity and gas - oh and arrange to pay the council for 2 or 3 huge commercial waste skips instead of your old wheelie bin.

NO CAN DO? WHY?

6)Well, the average Garden size of your average semi is just 163,2 sq metres - shrinking from 168 sq m in 1983.

7) Ease of access into this shrinking garden is 93.8% - down from 94% in 1983.

THERE SIMPLY IS NOT ROOM TO EXTEND - but even if there were, YOU have other problems:

YOU HAVE NOT GOT ANY MONEY WITH WHICH TO EXTEND, PUT IN NEW ADEQUATE INFRASTRUCTURE , AND RE-EQUIP:

6) The average household debt is now around Ł60,000 - up from just Ł29,000 in 2005.

So YOU want to help but are HELPLESS to HELP because:

A) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE SPACE.
B) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE RESOURCES.
C) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE MONEY.

The UK is in a FAR WORSE position:

This country is overcrowded.
This country is in debt.
This country's Police, Health, Education, Benefits, Social Services, and EVERY OTHER service is STRETCHED to BREAKING POINT.
The majority of this country's indigenous people are living increasingly difficult lives on increasingly limited incomes - an increasingly miserable existence really - with drug, drink, suicide rates up, and Food Banks on the up.

This country CANNOT HELP.

A) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE SPACE.
B) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE RESOURCES.
C) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE MONEY.

It has got nothing to do with 'Xenophobia' or 'Racism' or 'Extreme Right Wing-Ism' but ALL to do with Economics, Mathematics, Proxemics and Demographics.

Unless you show me the 100 homeless sleeping over at yours every night, I will stand by the above.

[empire]

how can we clampdown on it, when we have the floodgates opened thanks to tony blair, for handing are country over to the scumbags the eussr,

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Josh, you haven't responded to my post below, but then go on to post the same fallacies in your post above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshBB

This is so awful, I can't understand how anyone can want to just leave them there.. (@ david cameron).

Seriously though when they're coming here we get tons of xenophobic rhetoric but as soon as an asian country says they're pushing boats away.. everyone is freaking out."
..............................

You really need to delete the words; 'xenophobic' and 'racist' from your dictionaries Josh.

Accepting reality is not being racist or xenophobic; it's recognising the absolutes of Science and Truth- from Economics and Mathematics, to Proxemics and Demographics.

A few points:

1) According to many on here, in the UK we have our OWN increasing numbers of homeless, destitute, desperate and hungry people.

2) So let's imagine that YOU live in the most common type of house - a 3 bed semi.

3) The average Total Floor Area of that 3 bed semi is 96.8 sq m - down from 98.8 sq m over the past 10 years due to shrinking land availability, a dearth of homes, affordability etc.

4) Ignoring Statutory Overcrowding legislation - which deems a room measuring 6.5 square meters as 'suitable' for one person and a room measuring 10.2 square meters as suitable for two people - it is possible for 100 homeless people to shelter from the elements every night in YOUR lovely 3 bed semi alone, by allowing them to sleep on the floor of every room.

Now YOU have SERIOUS problems:

5) The average 3 bed semi has:

a) one bathroom and just 2 toilets for 100 people.
b) one kitchen with one cooker.
c) only three or four sets of bedding.
d) limited pans, plates, crockery etc etc etc.
e) One fridge and freezer.
f) very limited storage.
g) only a couple of TV's.

SOLUTION:

e) Build a massive dormitory bedroom extension
f) Build 6 more bathrooms, 6 more wc's, 6 more kitchens - 6 more of everything.
f) Buy lots more beds, bedding, new sets of clothes for 100 people.
g)But don't forget to incorporate a massive upgrade to the sewers, water supply, electricity and gas - oh and arrange to pay the council for 2 or 3 huge commercial waste skips instead of your old wheelie bin.

NO CAN DO? WHY?

6)Well, the average Garden size of your average semi is just 163,2 sq metres - shrinking from 168 sq m in 1983.

7) Ease of access into this shrinking garden is 93.8% - down from 94% in 1983.

THERE SIMPLY IS NOT ROOM TO EXTEND - but even if there were, YOU have other problems:

YOU HAVE NOT GOT ANY MONEY WITH WHICH TO EXTEND, PUT IN NEW ADEQUATE INFRASTRUCTURE , AND RE-EQUIP:

6) The average household debt is now around Ł60,000 - up from just Ł29,000 in 2005.

So YOU want to help but are HELPLESS to HELP because:

A) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE SPACE.
B) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE RESOURCES.
C) YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE MONEY.

The UK is in a FAR WORSE position:

This country is overcrowded.
This country is in debt.
This country's Police, Health, Education, Benefits, Social Services, and EVERY OTHER service is STRETCHED to BREAKING POINT.
The majority of this country's indigenous people are living increasingly difficult lives on increasingly limited incomes - an increasingly miserable existence really - with drug, drink, suicide rates up, and Food Banks on the up.

This country CANNOT HELP.

A) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE SPACE.
B) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE RESOURCES.
C) WE HAVE NOT GOT THE MONEY.

It has got nothing to do with 'Xenophobia' or 'Racism' or 'Extreme Right Wing-Ism' but ALL to do with Economics, Mathematics, Proxemics and Demographics.

Unless you show me the 100 homeless sleeping over at yours every night, I will stand by the above.

I don't understand the whole math behind your house&garden thing, so I apologise for that.. but I believe that the reason our public services are so damaged is a result of the extreme austerity cuts applied by the tories. Food banks also a result of welfare cuts.

Originally Posted by empire

how can we clampdown on it, when we have the floodgates opened thanks to tony blair, for handing are country over to the scumbags the eussr,

Did you seriously just compare the EU to a dictatorship and totalitarian regime?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

I don't understand the whole math behind your house&garden thing, so I apologise for that.. but I believe that the reason our public services are so damaged is a result of the extreme austerity cuts applied by the tories. Food banks also a result of welfare cuts.



Did you seriously just compare the EU to a dictatorship and totalitarian regime?

illegal wars, umpteen countries bankrupt , civil wars erupting, illegal cartels, effectively banning the poorest nations outside Europe from trading, raping the African coastlines, allowing tens of thousands to drown at sea? the end result of the eu dictatorship is starting to resemble that of dictatorships and totalitarian regimes

[kirklancaster]

It was even envisaged as The Fourth Reich, and its architects were Nazis who realised that they were losing the Second World War and that they could not conquer Europe by military means so must do so by Economic means.

Merkells is the NEW Fuhrer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...kels-tune.html

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You aren't being clever Kizzy - not at all. I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question in a polite manner, but OK, pedantics aside, 'most' and 'just abouts' then.

And yes he IS wrong. But it is futile trying to debate that or any other subject with someone like you who constantly uses circular arguments and misrepresentations and who blindly ignores empiric irrefutable evidence which defeats her arguments to still post the same nonsense argument, and who still supports an idiot like Russell Brand despite him being clearly shown to be a total moronic buffoon, liar, and notoriously shameless 'U' Turner.

So I think I'll just wait for Joey's response thank you.

I was only pointing out you had misquoted him, it's so so annoying when that happens and leads to all kinds of confusion.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It was even envisaged as The Fourth Reich, and its architects were Nazis who realised that they were losing the Second World War and that they could not conquer Europe by military means so must do so by Economic means.

Merkells is the NEW Fuhrer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...kels-tune.html

What do you mean by comparing Angela Merkel to Adolf Hitler? I'm not understanding your logic here.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What do you mean by comparing Angela Merkel to Adolf Hitler? I'm not understanding your logic here.

This is what turns me off UKIP, the rhetoric as to anything they and their supporters don't like or want as being the absolute truth and all that matters.
Everyone else wrong, only they being right, in their view.

The hard extreme of dismissing everything anyone else says that challenges the UKIP viewpoint,usually with nasty put downs and unnecessary personal insults too.

Had Labour won the election, it would have done a lot I would have not liked,a lot I would and I would have criticised anything I didn't like.
I have never, and still don't believe only one party has the answers to everything.

As to immigration and this topic as to it today, we all knew the immigration figures when this govt. came to power,it was falling when this govt' came to power too.
It was this PM who said he was going to get it down to tens of thousands.
in 5 years,no ifs,no buts.

It has considerably gone up under his watch,no one elses,almost back to the levels Labour were hammered for it reaching, still he gets no blame.
He cannot in fact do anything about it really,UKIP cannot either, unless we are out of the EU.
Thankfully now businesses are getting behind the staying in side, coming out won't happen and really immigration will just have to be tolerated in the main by all parties under the EU guidelines to same.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This is what turns me off UKIP, the rhetoric as to anything they and their supporters don't like or want as being the absolute truth and all that matters.
Everyone else wrong, only they being right, in their view.

The hard extreme of dismissing everything anyone else says that challenges the UKIP viewpoint,usually with nasty put downs and unnecessary personal insults too.

Had Labour won the election, it would have done a lot I would have not liked,a lot I would and I would have criticised anything I didn't like.
I have never, and still don't believe only one party has the answers to everything.

As to immigration and this topic as to it today, we all knew the immigration figures when this govt. came to power,it was falling when this govt' came to power too.
It was this PM who said he was going to get it down to tens of thousands.
in 5 years,no ifs,no buts.

It has considerably gone up under his watch,no one elses,almost back to the levels Labour were hammered for it reaching, still he gets no blame.
He cannot in fact do anything about it really,UKIP cannot either, unless we are out of the EU.
Thankfully now businesses are getting behind the staying in side, coming out won't happen and really immigration will just have to be tolerated in the main by all parties under the EU guidelines to same.

another prediction?

like the election result?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This is what turns me off UKIP, the rhetoric as to anything they and their supporters don't like or want as being the absolute truth and all that matters.
Everyone else wrong, only they being right, in their view.

The hard extreme of dismissing everything anyone else says that challenges the UKIP viewpoint,usually with nasty put downs and unnecessary personal insults too.

Had Labour won the election, it would have done a lot I would have not liked,a lot I would and I would have criticised anything I didn't like.
I have never, and still don't believe only one party has the answers to everything.

As to immigration and this topic as to it today, we all knew the immigration figures when this govt. came to power,it was falling when this govt' came to power too.
It was this PM who said he was going to get it down to tens of thousands.
in 5 years,no ifs,no buts.

It has considerably gone up under his watch,no one elses,almost back to the levels Labour were hammered for it reaching, still he gets no blame.
He cannot in fact do anything about it really,UKIP cannot either, unless we are out of the EU.
Thankfully now businesses are getting behind the staying in side, coming out won't happen and really immigration will just have to be tolerated in the main by all parties under the EU guidelines to same.

oh aye I forgot you new labour fans get all offended or rather pretend to get offended by the most trivial things, the wrong adjective and new labourites always falsely accuse others of bigotry , yet ignore illegal wars million plus dead innocents endless innocents dying in the british hospitals from starvation thirst and neglect. nothing to say about that. evolting lying war mongers........oh but lets just blame it all on bush eh? easy cop out. funny so many other nations didn't join in the illegal wars they had more backbone more morality

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

oh aye I forgot you new labour fans get all offended or rather pretend to get offended by the most trivial things, the wrong adjective and new labourites always falsely accuse others of bigotry , yet ignore illegal wars million plus dead innocents endless innocents dying in the british hospitals from starvation thirst and neglect. nothing to say about that. evolting lying war mongers........oh but lets just blame it all on bush eh? easy cop out. funny so many other nations didn't join in the illegal wars they had more backbone more morality

As Labour supporters are we not entitled to a view?
I really object to your accusations that ALL Labour supporters were in support of taking the UK to war, that is NOT true.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

As Labour supporters are we not entitled to a view?
I really object to your accusations that ALL Labour supporters were in support of taking the UK to war, that is NOT true.

I dint ear many apologies from new labour, warmonger hume didn't even bother counting up the innocent dead, he simply didn't care....just like the fake new labourites who followed him into hell. 95% of the female mps voted for the illegal invasion too....so much for new labours radical view than women will mean less violence less war...yet another new labour lie that cost the lives of thousands. new labour are dead. they are pond life scum. hopefully in time some of them will be charged with war crimes. its also tragically funny to see ed balls up, the man who bankrupted us, actually as shadow chancellor for 5 years? just shows you the new labour idiots learnt nothing

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

As Labour supporters are we not entitled to a view?
I really object to your accusations that ALL Labour supporters were in support of taking the UK to war, that is NOT true.

I would have been against it Kizzy,I wasn't a Labour supporter then anyway,in fact as you yourself weren't either.
I really am stunned how these attacks are allowed to go on.
This is a thread about today's immigration figures not the Iraq war.

I have to say I am sadly getting really dismayed on here these last 3 days, really fed up of things now,sick of and rather weary of getting pulled up on every comment I make in so nastily and unnecessarily a fashion from 2 to 3 people.
It seems you get nowhere complaining either.

Options are running out but I am not really putting up with this much longer.
I love tibb but am fast coming to the point where enough really is enough.
By the way, just as they are, you are fully entitled and should be too, as to voicing your opinions,no matter what party you support or your views on immigration, without getting nasty insults and belittling attacks back for doing so.
At least I thought and believed that was how it should be.

[empire]

well the eu makes the rich richer, with cheap labour fron poor eastern europe, and the british workers are given no choice but to do work at low wages, thanks to the new labour and tories, who sold are people out,

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I would have been against it Kizzy,I wasn't a Labour supporter then anyway,in fact as you yourself weren't either.
I really am stunned how these attacks are allowed to go on.
This is a thread about today's immigration figures not the Iraq war.

I have to say I am sadly getting really dismayed on here these last 3 days, really fed up of things now,sick of and rather weary of getting pulled up on every comment I make in so nastily and unnecessarily a fashion from 2 to 3 people.
It seems you get nowhere complaining either.

Options are running out but I am not really putting up with this much longer.
I love tibb but am fast coming to the point where enough really is enough.
By the way, just as they are, you are fully entitled and should be too, as to voicing your opinions,no matter what party you support or your views on immigration, without getting nasty insults and belittling attacks back for doing so.
At least I thought and believed that was how it should be.

It's like water off a ducks back, we could raise issues going back to the 80s the sinking of the belgrano to the destabilisation due to military intervention in 2011... but what's the point?
I'm not getting drawn out.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This is what turns me off UKIP, the rhetoric as to anything they and their supporters don't like or want as being the absolute truth and all that matters.
Everyone else wrong, only they being right, in their view.

The hard extreme of dismissing everything anyone else says that challenges the UKIP viewpoint,usually with nasty put downs and unnecessary personal insults too.

Had Labour won the election, it would have done a lot I would have not liked,a lot I would and I would have criticised anything I didn't like.
I have never, and still don't believe only one party has the answers to everything.

As to immigration and this topic as to it today, we all knew the immigration figures when this govt. came to power,it was falling when this govt' came to power too.
It was this PM who said he was going to get it down to tens of thousands.
in 5 years,no ifs,no buts.

It has considerably gone up under his watch,no one elses,almost back to the levels Labour were hammered for it reaching, still he gets no blame.
He cannot in fact do anything about it really,UKIP cannot either, unless we are out of the EU.
Thankfully now businesses are getting behind the staying in side, coming out won't happen and really immigration will just have to be tolerated in the main by all parties under the EU guidelines to same.

Sorry, but I can't accept this as it's a complete and utter reversal of the true status quo - it is the Left Wing on here who in the main arrogantly presume that their views are the absolute truth and who either 'gang up' to 'shout down' any opposing views, or ignore posts which expose their views as wrong only to then post those same fallacious views on other threads.

The EU DID irrefutably see the first light of day as a a plan by defeated Nazis to conquer Europe economically, and the UK subscribed to the EU on terms which were wholly unfavourable to the UK but covertly favourable to a succession of treacherous bastards like Ted Heath who took us into this madness for their own mercenary and greedy reasons.

There are NO genuine benefits to our being in the EU or staying in the EU and NO WAY that we can ever recoup the trillions of pounds which being in the EU has cost the tax payers of this country during our 40 years of that unmitigated disaster of a membership.

Is there a business or investment scheme which any SANE person would subscribe to after suffering increasing financial losses year in year out for 40 years?

Is there even a business or investment scheme which would STILL BE IN BUSINESS after suffering such increasing losses year in year out?

Like the corruptly run Nationalised Industries before it, and like EVERY inept UK Government there has ever been, and like every corrupt and inept Council and Public Sector body this country has ever seen, the EU survives because the horrific results of corruption and waste and inept fiscal practices, are easily lessened because the huge holes in the balance sheets are not so instantly observable when we are talking trillions of pounds of PUBLIC MONEY - that never-ending well which the corrupt and greedy can perpetually return to, and when in addition the fabulously wealthy corporations, businessmen and bent political figures who DO GAIN from our membership of the EU at the expense of the UK, ALL OWN AND CONTROL the vast PRO-EU propaganda machines which took us in and have kept us in despite the TRUTH BEING OUT THERE, and DESPITE the warnings of honourable, TRUTHFUL men like NIGEL FARAGE who that same propaganda machine has constantly lied about and ridiculed and continues to do so.

The EU is unique in that it is the ultimate example of disgustingly greedy Capitalists BLATANTLY employing a perverse form of Communism to increase their own personal wealth and that of their upper social class at the expense and to the detriment of the lower classes:

'From each regardless of his means to each according to his greed'

THESE GUYS are the ONES BENEFITING from the EU NOT US. THEY get the GRANTS and KICKBACKS and we PAY the BILLIONS PER YEAR COSTS AND STAND THE FINANCIAL LOSSES which enable this situation to continue.

40 years of unmitigated failure, corruption, wasteful mismanagement, and negative annual balance sheets amounting to trillions of pounds in losses to the UK.

The Common Agriculture Policy with its subsidies to the wrong people, the butter and cheese mountains and wine and milk lakes which have KEPT the PRICE OF OUR FOOD three times HIGHER than it SHOULD have been for that 40 years, the decimation of our Fishing Industry, the loss of our Sovereignty, Our control of our Judicial System, Borders etc etc etc.

It's PURE MADNESS.

After 40 years, now, all of a sudden - after Farage had woken up some of the slumbering populace who had overfed on all the pro-EU propaganda - Cameron is going to negotiate better this and that and shet Marigolds.

It's BS.

Even the "three million jobs will go if we exit the EU" claim which treacherous lying ***** like Clegg keeps spouting as gospel is a false premise and a lie. The very authors of the report which that claim is MISQUOTED from have repeatedly and publicly DENIED that that's what they said or meant.

They actually said that "3 million jobs could be dependent upon our export market." - with NO MENTION OF THE COMMON MARKET.

Get us out.