[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ithinkiloveyoutoo

I don't think it's fair comparing the Bulger case to this. As terrible as it was Denise knows what happened to her son. Not knowing must be 10x worst. And thinking that your neglect had a part to play in this must kill inside.

They've never really even acknowledged though that they were neglectful, not that I've seen or read anyway but maybe I'm wrong on that?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

They didn't tho. They were in an apartment complex.

I don't know why that would make a difference, the physical risks far outweigh the risk of abduction, accidents in the home are quite common

[rubymoo]

I still don't understand why they didn't use the free childrens club that was available until 11pm or the babysitting service available til 1pm, i have trouble leaving my teenagers home alone, i still give them a run down of the rules before i leave them, like don't run down the stairs, eat your food properly and sensibly, don't touch the cooker......they're 15 this year......

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I still don't understand why they didn't use the free childrens club that was available until 11pm or the babysitting service available til 1pm, i have trouble leaving my teenagers home alone, i still give them a run down of the rules before i leave them, like don't run down the stairs, eat your food properly and sensibly, don't touch the cooker......they're 15 this year......

I'm the same, and I am by no means a perfect parent, there is in reality no such thing we all learn as we go along, but if Maddie telling them she woke up and was scared was not enough for them to have a rethink they really needed parenting classes

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm the same, and I am by no means a perfect parent, there is in reality no such thing we all learn as we go along, but if Maddie telling them she woke up and was scared was not enough for them to have a rethink they really needed parenting classes

Yep. That's a very hard thing to wrap my head around in all this.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I'm the same, and I am by no means a perfect parent, there is in reality no such thing we all learn as we go along, but if Maddie telling them she woke up and was scared was not enough for them to have a rethink they really needed parenting classes

I'm also by no means a perfect parent, i couldn't leave my kids alone in a foreign country, when we went to America we stopped in the Disney complex and my girls were about 9 at the time, we never left them for a second, they had a bar by the pool and my husband brought drinks up to the room (as they were exhausted and asleep by 9pm after a busy day!), it wouldn't enter my head to leave them in a foreign country in a room they're unfamiliar with.

But i have left one of them home alone when they were younger, one of my girls were ill and i had to get the other to school, i had no way of getting her there other than to take her myself, so i left my girl who was ill and sleeping to nip to school to drop my other daughter off and pick her up, the school is across the road so i was gone less than 5 minutes, would others still class this as neglect? I'm just curious.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Conjecture. As James pointed out

There has been unprecedented hste for Kate for being middle class thin attractive and not hysterical and mawkish

It's not really "conjecture" at all, the press is full of "chav parents" being lambasted for relatively minor parenting errors. There is plenty of evidence to draw on. Frankly I call bull**** on the suggestion that they get MORE flak because they're middle class doctors. If that's true at all, it's simply because they've had the status and resources to draw more attention overall to themselves and their case, and thus more heat. If we're talking percentages, far more people willing to buy into the "not at fault at all" narrative because of who they are and where they're from.

Let's not abandon stating the bloody obvious because of a lack of statistics and hard evidence... It's a discussion forum, not a court room.

[rubymoo]

I just couldn't go off and have a meal and celebrate with friends knowing my kids were in an unlocked apartment alone, my kids would be beside me having a meal too, or if asleep then we'd have a takeaway.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I'm also by no means a perfect parent, i couldn't leave my kids alone in a foreign country, when we went to America we stopped in the Disney complex and my girls were about 9 at the time, we never left them for a second, they had a bar by the pool and my husband brought drinks up to the room (as they were exhausted and asleep by 9pm after a busy day!), it wouldn't enter my head to leave them in a foreign country in a room they're unfamiliar with.

But i have left one of them home alone when they were younger, one of my girls were ill and i had to get the other to school, i had no way of getting her there other than to take her myself, so i left my girl who was ill and sleeping to nip to school to drop my other daughter off and pick her up, the school is across the road so i was gone less than 5 minutes, would others still class this as neglect? I'm just curious.

No I wouldn't that as neglect but as a necessity Ruby

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No I wouldn't that as neglect but as a necessity Ruby

That's how i see it, i ran there and back!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

That's how i see it, i ran there and back!

Yeah I agree with Cherie, you didn't have much choice and atleast you were aware that what you were doing wasn't ideal and got back as quick as you could

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I'm also by no means a perfect parent, i couldn't leave my kids alone in a foreign country, when we went to America we stopped in the Disney complex and my girls were about 9 at the time, we never left them for a second, they had a bar by the pool and my husband brought drinks up to the room (as they were exhausted and asleep by 9pm after a busy day!), it wouldn't enter my head to leave them in a foreign country in a room they're unfamiliar with.

But i have left one of them home alone when they were younger, one of my girls were ill and i had to get the other to school, i had no way of getting her there other than to take her myself, so i left my girl who was ill and sleeping to nip to school to drop my other daughter off and pick her up, the school is across the road so i was gone less than 5 minutes, would others still class this as neglect? I'm just curious.

..I think that Education Welfare would have considered it more of a neglect thing Ruby, if one of your daughters missed a day of school because of a sibling being ill and if she herself was perfectly fine... that sometimes can't be avoided either for different reasons, but you were able to get her there and you did...you were just using good parental judgement, I think..

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I just couldn't go off and have a meal and celebrate with friends knowing my kids were in an unlocked apartment alone, my kids would be beside me having a meal too, or if asleep then we'd have a takeaway.

Yes but they did and they were happy they were safe, their kids their call. I am sure they could look at your parenthood and criticise too.

As I said all the couples deemed it safe and normal. They did not expect an abduction just as you would not expect one in the shops but it does happen

[Crimson Dynamo]

For the McCann's to be involved in the death both would have to be psychopathic and neither show any signs. They would also have to hoodwink our best defective s and I would wager they are a wee bit better than any member here at spotting Crim's.

Look for the simple answer. She was abducted and disposed of.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Yes but they did and they were happy they were safe, their kids their call. I am sure they could look at your parenthood and criticise too.

As I said all the couples deemed it safe and normal. They did not expect an abduction just as you would not expect one in the shops but it does happen

They may not have expected an abduction but they surely, as parents and as Doctors too, should have known how likely it could be that one of those extremely young children could have had some sort of accident? Or that maddie (who had already told them that she atleast one time when they weren't there had woken up and cried and looked for them), could quite possibly have woken up again and wandered out the unlocked door and had some sort of accident

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

For the McCann's to be involved in the death both would have to be psychopathic and neither show any signs. They would also have to hoodwink our best defective s and I would wager they are a wee bit better than any member here at spotting Crim's.

Look for the simple answer. She was abducted and disposed of.

Don't they say that usually in crimes involving children it's usually someone close to them or more specifically a relative?

[bots]

From my own experience on an event like a holiday, the family always do things together. This goes for my friends circles too, holidays and adults only, really doesn't happen. If a restaurant objects to children, then you go to one that accepts them, there are plenty around. There really isn't any valid excuse for leaving kids behind

[Marsh.]

Yeah.

People I know tend to leave the kids with grandparents or other relatives when they want an adult only holiday.

[T*]

Imagine if a toddler woke up in the middle of the night scared and wondering where the hell their parents are
It'd be terrifying
No matter what, the McCanns were selfish and neglectful and should've had common sense

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Yes but they did and they were happy they were safe, their kids their call. I am sure they could look at your parenthood and criticise too.

As I said all the couples deemed it safe and normal. They did not expect an abduction just as you would not expect one in the shops but it does happen

I think the only thing i'm guilty of as a parent is over worrying and over mothering, i've never said i were the best parent and they may criticise my style of parenting but i think it were madness for them to leave their kids all of them under 4 years old, in an unlocked apartment out of eyeshot, could you honestly leave your kids in the same situation, did you ever think your kids were/are 100% safe? I know i worry about my kids every minute they aren't with me, they could have used the child-club/babysitting facilities and they chose not too, and yes it was their call and what a call/risk to take for now it has life long repercussions for them for the rest of their lives, i question their common sense if they think/thought it's safe and normal to leave such little ones alone in a foreign country alone in an unsecured apartment to have a meal and drinks with friends, we all make mistakes as parents, but wow, what a mistake to make.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Don't they say that usually in crimes involving children it's usually someone close to them or more specifically a relative?

No that is murder

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No that is murder

Murder, child abuse, alteast one, if not both of those things has happened to Maddie McCann

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

I think the only thing i'm guilty of as a parent is over worrying and over mothering, i've never said i were the best parent and they may criticise my style of parenting but i think it were madness for them to leave their kids all of them under 4 years old, in an unlocked apartment out of eyeshot, could you honestly leave your kids in the same situation, did you ever think your kids were/are 100% safe? I know i worry about my kids every minute they aren't with me, they could have used the child-club/babysitting facilities and they chose not too, and yes it was their call and what a call/risk to take for now it has life long repercussions for them for the rest of their lives, i question their common sense if they think/thought it's safe and normal to leave such little ones alone in a foreign country alone in an unsecured apartment to have a meal and drinks with friends, we all make mistakes as parents, but wow, what a mistake to make.

No. They were incredibly unlucky that a paedophile tatgetted them. Incredible bad luck.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

For the McCann's to be involved in the death both would have to be psychopathic and neither show any signs. They would also have to hoodwink our best defective s and I would wager they are a wee bit better than any member here at spotting Crim's.

Look for the simple answer. She was abducted and disposed of.

So why, despite the massive amounts of time and money dedicated to the case, has there still not been any evidence of an intruder, or an abduction?

The ONLY reason the abducter story even exists is because of Kates claims that the curtain/window was open, which she even changed her mind about later for gods sake

Who do you mean by 'best detectives' btw? Given it was our police forces who sent in the 'unreliable dogs' who instead of finding blood and the smell of death, were mistaken as it was the smell of 'week old nappies and seabass' they detected?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No. They were incredibly unlucky that a paedophile tatgetted them. Incredible bad luck.

What evidence do you have that a paedophile was involved in any of this?