[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Even if the government in power does'nt think that migration is too high now.At the rate it's coming it's not going to be all that long until we as a country have to put the brakes on or atleast take control of the numbers.This tiny island has its limits.Atleast out of the EU we have the option to do that when the sh1t really does hit the fan and one government will have to do that,It is inevitable.It's going to happen.As an EU member we are impotent to do anything.

NM if your reasons for voting to leave the EU hinge on migration levels, I'd humbly (since I'm a humble fellow) suggest that you've been mislead and will be disappointed (in the event of Brexit, when it has little impact on migration). If you have other solid reasons for wanting out of the EU, if you just think that on balance it's the right way to go, then that's one thing... but so many people are letting their thinking regarding the referrendum hinge on migration and it's a complete red herring.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

NM if your reasons for voting to leave the EU hinge on migration levels, I'd humbly (since I'm a humble fellow) suggest that you've been mislead and will be disappointed (in the event of Brexit, when it has little impact on migration). If you have other solid reasons for wanting out of the EU, if you just think that on balance it's the right way to go, then that's one thing... but so many people are letting their thinking regarding the referrendum hinge on migration and it's a complete red herring.

Migration is 'a' reason i'm voting out.Not 'the' reason.
I don't like the whole concept of what it has become since becoming the EU.I think in the beginning the EEC was a good idea but it has become a totally different authoritarian beast.The people who put forward the laws to be pondered over by the EU parliament are not elected they are 'appointed'.They imo don't really like the concept of nations and only want what is good for their organisation and not the member states.You may argue that what is good for the EU is obviously good for its members but i believe that the interests of the member states are only second to the interests of this giant bloated company we know as the European Union.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Migration is 'a' reason i'm voting out.Not 'the' reason.
I don't like the whole concept of what it has become since becoming the EU.I think in the beginning the EEC was a good idea but it has become a totally different authoritarian beast.The people who put forward the laws to be pondered over by the EU parliament are not elected they are 'appointed'.They imo don't really like the concept of nations and only want what is good for their organisation and not the member states.You may argue that what is good for the EU is obviously good for its members but i believe that the interests of the member states are only second to the interests of this giant bloated company we know as the European Union.

I don't necessarily disagree that there are plenty of serious flaws with the EU, however, I personally think there's plenty of scope for drastic reform into something great rather than just cashing in our chips and heading home. My main gripe really is that no one has tried particularly hard to achieve that. A few token gripes here and there but mostly just lumbering along, and then wondering why it isn't quite working.

I could understand the drive to dismantle it if we had been trying for years to find a better solution, failing to do so, and having no other option. As it stands, it all seems to be somewhat knee-jerk, ill thought out, and driven by misplaced economic and security concerns.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't necessarily disagree that there are plenty of serious flaws with the EU, however, I personally think there's plenty of scope for drastic reform into something great rather than just cashing in our chips and heading home. My main gripe really is that no one has tried particularly hard to achieve that. A few token gripes here and there but mostly just lumbering along, and then wondering why it isn't quite working.

I could understand the drive to dismantle it if we had been trying for years to find a better solution, failing to do so, and having no other option. As it stands, it all seems to be somewhat knee-jerk, ill thought out, and driven by misplaced economic and security concerns.

I think in order to reform it,It would take a consensus from all its members,Members all with different interests and i think a consensus would never be reached.
They can't even form a consensus on the recent refugee crisis so every nation has gone into panic mode and erected fences round their borders apart from Germany who invited the world with little thought for the surrounding countries.This is just one small example why the EU as a concept is deeply flawed.
All these different countries and cultures all want different things and jamming them all together under a common rule is destined to fail.
Everything takes years and years to sort out.Every treaty,trade deal,everything.
It is unworkable in my humble opinion and i think it is a sinking ship.Look at the Euro,What a mess.
We should don our life jackets and swim for dry land.Imo.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I think in order to reform it,It would take a consensus from all its members,Members all with different interests and i think a consensus would never be reached.
They can't even form a consensus on the recent refugee crisis so every nation has gone into panic mode and erected fences round their borders apart from Germany who invited the world with little thought for the surrounding countries.This is just one small example why the EU as a concept is deeply flawed.
All these different countries and cultures all want different things and jamming them all together under a common rule is destined to fail.
Everything takes years and years to sort out.Every treaty,trade deal,everything.
It is unworkable in my humble opinion and i think it is a sinking ship.Look at the Euro,What a mess.
We should don our life jackets and swim for dry land.Imo.

You have very valid points and I am one of the first to agree there is much wrong with the EU and a great deal needs to be changed.

Because I would like things to be reformed,then that is another reason I want the UK to remain, to help reform it.

I actually think reform of the EU would be harder with less members, I actually am one who thinks, rightly or wrongly,depending on what side of this issue anyone is on,that with many more Nations now in the EU, reform could be demanded and more likely achieved.

The eurozone is beginning to do better again and I do not think it is a sinking ship,probably not ever but certainly not for a long time to come.
hence why so many big Nations are seeking to set up trade deals with the EU.

However sinking ship or not, if it does sink and badly,then in or out, that will too have an effect on the UK,we cannot be immune to what happens in the eurozone, we do not ever need to join it,but in good times and bad times for the eurozone,it will affect the UK in some way.

You are right too in that you say trading deals take years to agree and set up too,that will apply to the UK too if we vote to leave with all the uncertainty that may entail as well.

I just am not a separatist and I believe change where change is needed is better achieved from within something rather than out of it.

Now, again, maybe I am foolish to do so and then again maybe I am not,however I do think the present PM we have has started a ball rolling slowly as to reforming the EU.
I also think the UK could begin to lead the way to more reform of the EU too.

So I will never change your mind nor you mine now but I would look for and hope for a better EU,with the UK helping lead the way in it, to that better way.
I respect your viewpoint and you make really valid points as to the make up of the EU being less than good.
I just have not heard a single thing as to out, that in any way convinces me that the UK can hold the status it has and certainly not do better out of the EU than what we are doing while in it as a full member.

If the out side could show me anyone in the EU saying the UK will not have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also if they could present even one major nation, outside the EU, who is a friend or ally of the UK who are saying we should leave, and they will definitely step up to the mark for us if we do.
Then that would go some way to make me see 'out' differently.however there are none.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You have very valid points and I am one of the first to agree there is much wrong with the EU and a great deal needs to be changed.

Because I would like things to be reformed,then that is another reason I want the UK to remain, to help reform it.

I actually think reform of the EU would be harder with less members, I actually am one who thinks, rightly or wrongly,depending on what side of this issue anyone is on,that with many more Nations now in the EU, reform could be demanded and more likely achieved.

The eurozone is beginning to do better again and I do not think it is a sinking ship,probably not ever but certainly not for a long time to come.
hence why so many big Nations are seeking to set up trade deals with the EU.

However sinking ship or not, if it does sink and badly,then in or out, that will too have an effect on the UK,we cannot be immune to what happens in the eurozone, we do not ever need to join it,but in good times and bad times for the eurozone,it will affect the UK in some way.

You are right too in that you say trading deals take years to agree and set up too,that will apply to the UK too if we vote to leave with all the uncertainty that may entail as well.

I just am not a separatist and I believe change where change is needed is better achieved from within something rather than out of it.

Now, again, maybe I am foolish to do so and then again maybe I am not,however I do think the present PM we have has started a ball rolling slowly as to reforming the EU.
I also think the UK could begin to lead the way to more reform of the EU too.

So I will never change your mind nor you mine now but I would look for and hope for a better EU,with the UK helping lead the way in it, to that better way.
I respect your viewpoint and you make really valid points as to the make up of the EU being less than good.
I just have not heard a single thing as to out, that in any way convinces me that the UK can hold the status it has and certainly not do better out of the EU than what we are doing while in it as a full member.

If the out side could show me anyone in the EU saying the UK will not have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also if they could present even one major nation, outside the EU, who is a friend or ally of the UK who are saying we should leave, and they will definitely step up to the mark for us if we do.
Then that would go some way to make me see 'out' differently.however there are none.

I disagree.

However i respect your opinion on it and you make a very good argument.I may not agree on this but i learn much from your posts.