[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

....No. joe public does not have a clue what is about to theoretically knee him in the nads concerning brexit.

I am a member of 'Joe Public'and so are DOZENS of my friends and associates as are dozens more of people who I could best term 'acquaintances', and we ALL voted for Brexit.

Among these people are four Company Directors, two Doctors, two Solicitors, several Nurses, three Policemen, several Teachers, and several SME business owners, as well as dozens of 'Blue Collar Workers, several unemployed and quite a few 'Ducker And Divers'.

The one other thing which we all have in common - apart from our Brexit vote - is that ALL of us understand the real issues concerning the EU and our membership of it.

So while you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you will forgive me if I elect not to pay heed to it, and this is based upon the fact - that in my opinion, which I am as EQUALLY entitled to - it is ALL YOUR posts which are so ill informed and erroneous as to the true facts concerning current affairs, including politics and the EU, that they attest to YOU having the woeful LACK of any REAL understanding of the issues often debated on here, NOT 'Joe Public'.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am a member of 'Joe Public'and so are DOZENS of my friends and associates as are dozens more of people who I could best term 'acquaintances', and we ALL voted for Brexit.

Among these people are four Company Directors, two Doctors, two Solicitors, several Nurses, three Policemen, several Teachers, and several SME business owners, as well as dozens of 'Blue Collar Workers, several unemployed and quite a few 'Ducker And Divers'.

The one other thing which we all have in common - apart from our Brexit vote - is that ALL of us understand the real issues concerning the EU and our membership of it.

So while you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you will forgive me if I elect not to pay heed to it, and this is based upon the fact - that in my opinion, which I am as EQUALLY entitled to - it is ALL YOUR posts which are so ill informed and erroneous as to the true facts concerning current affairs, including politics and the EU, that they attest to YOU having the woeful LACK of any REAL understanding of the issues often debated on here, NOT 'Joe Public'.

The remainers are all so aware, their crystal balls are not cloudy at all. I'm shocked they're not all millionaires with their amazing foresight.

Frexit next... and the dominoes begin to fall.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Frexit next... and the dominoes begin to fall.

Said Livia, after consulting her own crystal ball.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am a member of 'Joe Public'and so are DOZENS of my friends and associates as are dozens more of people who I could best term 'acquaintances', and we ALL voted for Brexit.

Among these people are four Company Directors, two Doctors, two Solicitors, several Nurses, three Policemen, several Teachers, and several SME business owners, as well as dozens of 'Blue Collar Workers, several unemployed and quite a few 'Ducker And Divers'.

The one other thing which we all have in common - apart from our Brexit vote - is that ALL of us understand the real issues concerning the EU and our membership of it.

So while you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you will forgive me if I elect not to pay heed to it, and this is based upon the fact - that in my opinion, which I am as EQUALLY entitled to - it is ALL YOUR posts which are so ill informed and erroneous as to the true facts concerning current affairs, including politics and the EU, that they attest to YOU having the woeful LACK of any REAL understanding of the issues often debated on here, NOT 'Joe Public'.

While I can agree with most of what you say there, it is I think unfair the criticism you make of the person you are getting at again.
Her views areas relevant as anyone elses and just because they are at odds with yours does not make them ill informed or erroneous.

This was the problem in the USA election which must have turned off many voters there by the personal slurs on the other by each candidate.
Neither gained any moral high ground there.

However how the EU gets in here is a little mystifying but Kirk, we are all Joe Public, not just you and those you know personally.
Also the other Joe Publics equally will have people they know well, are acquaintances or who they just know of such as you list as who voted leave, who also voted remain.

You haven't a monopoly on those groups, just as no one else has who is Joe public.
The people who voted remain, also know what they voting foe, Joe public and all the groups who did so that you list.

I do have to say, I asked many questions on here just as to what leaving meant and no leave voter told me anything concrete.
The only answer I got was they didn't want the EU making our laws.
Remain voters in my view voted for the status quo,knowing how all was and would not liekly change.
Leave voters probably voted for different reasons, some just for change, some for making our own laws, some immigration, some as to the single market and some for all of those things probably too.
Not all however.

So,I wanted to try to heed what others were saying opposite to me but I got nothing concrete at all,that could persuade me that the UK would do better out of the EU.
If I could have believed that, I would have thought about my vote more.
I listened to what you and most said,( when they were not personally insulting about it).
I was one who also realised remain was not going to win and in fact kept telling you that leave would get a result.

Anyway, all the people and groups you list that you know who voted to leave is fine but that is not the only story.
Those who voted remain probably the majority of them too have the same sets of people and professions they know, and know of as well who also voted as they did,remain too.
We are all Joe public however, not just you and those you know who think like you do.
Just as I am Joe public and those I know are not the only Joe public either.
.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am a member of 'Joe Public'and so are DOZENS of my friends and associates as are dozens more of people who I could best term 'acquaintances', and we ALL voted for Brexit.

Among these people are four Company Directors, two Doctors, two Solicitors, several Nurses, three Policemen, several Teachers, and several SME business owners, as well as dozens of 'Blue Collar Workers, several unemployed and quite a few 'Ducker And Divers'.

The one other thing which we all have in common - apart from our Brexit vote - is that ALL of us understand the real issues concerning the EU and our membership of it.

So while you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you will forgive me if I elect not to pay heed to it, and this is based upon the fact - that in my opinion, which I am as EQUALLY entitled to - it is ALL YOUR posts which are so ill informed and erroneous as to the true facts concerning current affairs, including politics and the EU, that they attest to YOU having the woeful LACK of any REAL understanding of the issues often debated on here, NOT 'Joe Public'.

And none of this has any effect on the majority of people on both sides who likely voted what they voted for based on soundbites and sensationalism rather than solid facts.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And none of this has any effect on the majority of people on both sides who likely voted what they voted for based on soundbites and sensationalism rather than solid facts.

more generalised insults for tens of millions , shameful

[arista]

[And none of this has any effect on the majority of people on both sides who likely voted what they voted for based on soundbites and sensationalism rather than solid facts. ]

I like that Dezzy
have you ever worked as a PA?

I would hire you

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

While I can agree with most of what you say there, it is I think unfair the criticism you make of the person you are getting at again.
Her views areas relevant as anyone elses and just because they are at odds with yours does not make them ill informed or erroneous.

This was the problem in the USA election which must have turned off many voters there by the personal slurs on the other by each candidate.
Neither gained any moral high ground there.

However how the EU gets in here is a little mystifying but Kirk, we are all Joe Public, not just you and those you know personally.
Also the other Joe Publics equally will have people they know well, are acquaintances or who they just know of such as you list as who voted leave, who also voted remain.

You haven't a monopoly on those groups, just as no one else has who is Joe public.
The people who voted remain, also know what they voting foe, Joe public and all the groups who did so that you list.

I do have to say, I asked many questions on here just as to what leaving meant and no leave voter told me anything concrete.
The only answer I got was they didn't want the EU making our laws.
Remain voters in my view voted for the status quo,knowing how all was and would not liekly change.
Leave voters probably voted for different reasons, some just for change, some for making our own laws, some immigration, some as to the single market and some for all of those things probably too.
Not all however.

So,I wanted to try to heed what others were saying opposite to me but I got nothing concrete at all,that could persuade me that the UK would do better out of the EU.
If I could have believed that, I would have thought about my vote more.
I listened to what you and most said,( when they were not personally insulting about it).
I was one who also realised remain was not going to win and in fact kept telling you that leave would get a result.

Anyway, all the people and groups you list that you know who voted to leave is fine but that is not the only story.
Those who voted remain probably the majority of them too have the same sets of people and professions they know, and know of as well who also voted as they did,remain too.
We are all Joe public however, not just you and those you know who think like you do.
Just as I am Joe public and those I know are not the only Joe public either.
.

Kirk did state 'in my opinion' before stating that the posters views on this subject on here are 'Ill informed' and 'erroneous'.A perfectly valid opinion to hold.
And he was not saying that he has some kind of 'monopoly' on knowing people of different professions.
He is replying to a very bold statement that is attempting to imply that people who voted to leave the EU are somehow 'ill informed' and are about to get some kind of big 'kick in the nads' that somehow Mystic Kizzy knows about and all of us uninformed dummies who voted to leave are totally ignorant to.
He is offering a rebuttal to this by giving examples of people from all different walks of life and all members of 'Joe public'(as all of us are) who made an informed decision when they cast their vote.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Kirk did state 'in my opinion' before stating that the posters views on this subject on here are 'Ill informed' and 'erroneous'.A perfectly valid opinion to hold.
And he was not saying that he has some kind of 'monopoly' on knowing people of different professions.
He is replying to a very bold statement that is attempting to imply that people who voted to leave the EU are somehow 'ill informed' and are about to get some kind of big 'kick in the nads' that somehow Mystic Kizzy knows about and all of us uninformed dummies who voted to leave are totally ignorant to.
He is offering a rebuttal to this by giving examples of people from all different walks of life and all members of 'Joe public'(as all of us are) who made an informed decision when they cast their vote.

I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting, on both sides too, although those voting remain knew things would probably go on as before.
However in even my own family, of whom very few voted to leave, talking to just 5 of them, 1 only voted to stop free movement of people from the EU, 2 voted for powers to be returned back to the UK parliament and the other 2 voted just for a change, no specifics as to why.

There were several factors of voting leave with not all voting for one set of things either.
That is my view and you can discount that but even from that small number in my family who did so, they did not vote for instance,believing we would leave the single market..
Also neither were they voting for that when they voted leave.

Needless to say I disagree too with your fist part of your post sadly, I see no reasons for personal attacks on others and stating they appear to know nothing.
Everyone has opinions, they do not need to be offensive,.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting, on both sides too, although those voting remain knew things would probably go on as before.
However in even my own family, of whom very few voted to leave, talking to just 5 of them, 1 only voted to stop free movement of people from the EU, 2 voted for powers to be returned back to the UK parliament and the other 2 voted just for a change, no specifics as to why.

There were several factors of voting leave with not all voting for one set of things either.
That is my view and you can discount that but even from that small number in my family who did so, they did not vote for instance,believing we would leave the single market..
Also neither were they voting for that when they voted leave.

Needless to say I disagree too with your fist part of your post sadly, I see no reasons for personal attacks on others and stating they appear to know nothing.
Everyone has opinions, they do not need to be offensive,.

But what makes those examples that you give of leave voters you know any more valid than those that Kirk knows?All are equally valid.There are many who researched what they were voting for aswell as many who did'nt on both sides.I don't discount your view as you shouldn't discount Kirks on those examples.There are implications on here that most leavers are unimformed or racists or xenophobes etc(i'm not saying that you've suggested that).These are offensive to leavers.
I saw no personal attacks in his post towards any person.Just an opinion on posts on here.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I actually totally have to disagree that informed decisions were made in voting, on both sides too, although those voting remain knew things would probably go on as before.
However in even my own family, of whom very few voted to leave, talking to just 5 of them, 1 only voted to stop free movement of people from the EU, 2 voted for powers to be returned back to the UK parliament and the other 2 voted just for a change, no specifics as to why.

There were several factors of voting leave with not all voting for one set of things either.
That is my view and you can discount that but even from that small number in my family who did so, they did not vote for instance,believing we would leave the single market..
Also neither were they voting for that when they voted leave.

Needless to say I disagree too with your fist part of your post sadly, I see no reasons for personal attacks on others and stating they appear to know nothing.
Everyone has opinions, they do not need to be offensive,.

I agree , remainers were spectacularly uninformed, most didnt even know the commissioners couldnt be voted in or out? Most didnt even know about the mass of bankrupt nations and record unemployment across europe

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;9063785]While I can agree with most of what you say there, it is I think unfair the criticism you make of the person you are getting at again.

NOTE: Though the distinctions are often extremely difficult to keep separate, I am referring in this response to OPINIONS and POSTS and NOT to members personally.

Kizzy is the one who 'criticised' and slurred 'Joe Public' in this post Joey, and because I am a member of 'Joe Public', I took offense at being so labelled, in such an overly simplistic and casually demeaning manner.

I am getting at no one. I am RESPONDING to posts which I do not agree with - ESPECIALLY posts such as this particular one, which ridiculously attempt to denigrate those members of the public who voted for Brexit - Not for the first time in posts by this poster either - and I am a member of the public who voted for Brexit.

"This was the problem in the USA election which must have turned off many voters there by the personal slurs on the other by each candidate.
Neither gained any moral high ground there."

The above is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT in this context Joey, because I have not cast any 'Personal Slurs' against anyone, but taken into consideration with your GROUNDLESS accusation above that I am 'getting at' this poster 'again', you are beginning to appear to be disingenuously and unfairly attempting to persuade the reader that I am 'victimising' someone, and this is unforgivable.

I am merely RESPONDING to a post which I do not agree with.

"Her views areas relevant as anyone elses and just because they are at odds with yours does not make them ill informed or erroneous."


In stating the above, you are TOTALLY wrong.

In MY personal opinion, based upon MY intellect, MY knowledge, and My intuition, 'Her views are both ill informed AND erroneous and THEREFORE they are most certainly NOT relevant to me.

HOW can they be?

Do you REALLY pay CREDENCE to views and statements which with EVERY FIBRE of your being you DEEM to be WRONG?

If I said that "in my opinion the Klu Klux Klan were all nice people who were just misunderstood" - Are you REALLY gong to try to tell me that you would say that my view is as relevant as some other member who declared them to be "sick evil, racist lunatics"?

No, I would hope, that based upon YOUR intellect, YOUR knowledge, and YOUR intuition, you would say that my view of the KKK is 'ill informed and totally erroneous'

"However how the EU gets in here is a little mystifying... "

The post is about Brexit and you are 'mystified as to How the Eu gets in here' Joey?

"...but Kirk, we are all Joe Public, not just you and those you know personally.

Also the other Joe Publics equally will have people they know well, are acquaintances or who they just know of such as you list as who voted leave, who also voted remain.

You haven't a monopoly on those groups, just as no one else has who is Joe public."

None of the above is relevant at all Joey, because I do not concern myself with anyone else outside of 'my group' because I do not know them or their political leanings, nor whether they voted Brexit or not, so I would not even consider trying to speak o their behalf - Why would I??

I am concerned only with rebutting a totally ludicrous statement which demeans me personally - and those members of 'Joe Public' who I DO KNOW who also voted Brexit, and I use them to support my rebuttal that not all 'Joe Public' are as clueless as the poster insinuates in her post.

"The people who voted remain, also know what they voting foe, Joe public and all the groups who did so that you list."


The above is a redundant statement Joey, because NOWHERE do I say that those voting Remain do not know what they are voting for.

"I do have to say, I asked many questions on here just as to what leaving meant and no leave voter told me anything concrete.
The only answer I got was they didn't want the EU making our laws."

Again, the above is totally irrelevant to the context here Joey of whether 'Joe Public' is clueless or not.

"Remain voters in my view voted for the status quo,knowing how all was and would not liekly change.
Leave voters probably voted for different reasons, some just for change, some for making our own laws, some immigration, some as to the single market and some for all of those things probably too.
Not all however.

So,I wanted to try to heed what others were saying opposite to me but I got nothing concrete at all,that could persuade me that the UK would do better out of the EU.
If I could have believed that, I would have thought about my vote more.
I listened to what you and most said,( when they were not personally insulting about it).
I was one who also realised remain was not going to win and in fact kept telling you that leave would get a result.

Anyway, all the people and groups you list that you know who voted to leave is fine but that is not the only story.
Those who voted remain probably the majority of them too have the same sets of people and professions they know, and know of as well who also voted as they did,remain too.
We are all Joe public however, not just you and those you know who think like you do.
Just as I am Joe public and those I know are not the only Joe public either."


I have nort disputed any of the above Joey, but, sorry, once again, NONE of it is relevant to my post or the post which my post was a response to.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Kirk did state 'in my opinion' before stating that the posters views on this subject on here are 'Ill informed' and 'erroneous'.A perfectly valid opinion to hold.
And he was not saying that he has some kind of 'monopoly' on knowing people of different professions.
He is replying to a very bold statement that is attempting to imply that people who voted to leave the EU are somehow 'ill informed' and are about to get some kind of big 'kick in the nads' that somehow Mystic Kizzy knows about and all of us uninformed dummies who voted to leave are totally ignorant to.
He is offering a rebuttal to this by giving examples of people from all different walks of life and all members of 'Joe public'(as all of us are) who made an informed decision when they cast their vote.

My SINCEREST thanks to you Paul for your support.

I did NOTHING but respond - CIVILLY - to yet another piss-taking, demeaning post aimed at Brexiteers.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

But what makes those examples that you give of leave voters you know any more valid than those that Kirk knows?All are equally valid.There are many who researched what they were voting for aswell as many who did'nt on both sides.I don't discount your view as you shouldn't discount Kirks on those examples.There are implications on here that most leavers are unimformed or racists or xenophobes etc(i'm not saying that you've suggested that).These are offensive to leavers.
I saw no personal attacks in his post towards any person.Just an opinion on posts on here.

They are not more valid, where do I say that?
That is exactly what I was saying.

However in the post I responded to that post that does not say anywhere in there any acknowledgement of an opposing view.
Where on earth though did I say my findings were any more valid than Kirk's, it was merely another take on actual leave voters and voting.

What is sure however,in my view,is that neither him, you or I can be sure that 'everyone' who voted leave, voted for 'all' the same reasons or even just one reason.

They voted to leave yes, the make up of leaving is an entirely different thing.

By the way, there's been plenty of abuse thrown at remain voters on here too, very unpleasantly too at times.
Very much directly against myself personally as well.
Leave actually does not have a monopoly on that happening either.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And none of this has any effect on the majority of people on both sides who likely voted what they voted for based on soundbites and sensationalism rather than solid facts.

No, but I do not care about any 'majority of people on both sides' only about myself when I am being erroneously labelled and demeaned by being 'tarred with that famous 'same brush' which some use to make sweeping and mocking generalisations about 'Joe Public' - which are both arrogantly presumptive and erroneous anyway.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

No, but I do not care about any 'majority of people on both sides' only about myself when I am being erroneously labelled and demeaned by being 'tarred with that famous 'same brush' which some use to make sweeping and mocking generalisations about 'Joe Public' - which are both arrogantly presumptive and erroneous anyway.

Kirk, this isn't about you. I'm just going to repeat that for your benefit. This isn't about you. You are tarring yourself with the brush for an excuse to be outraged over something.

I said that a large number of people on both sides would have voted despite not knowing what they were actually voting for because they voted based on the headlines and soundbites. That's a true comment, most people don't understand that leaving the EU changes very little in terms of laws or Immigration yet those were the deciding factors for a lot of people who most likely didn't look into the actual issues of staying or leaving.

Expecting the public to make informed decisions based on research and impartiality is incredibly naive.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Kirk, this isn't about you. I'm just going to repeat that for your benefit. This isn't about you. You are tarring yourself with the brush for an excuse to be outraged over something.

I said that a large number of people on both sides would have voted despite not knowing what they were actually voting for because they voted based on the headlines and soundbites. That's a true comment, most people don't understand that leaving the EU changes very little in terms of laws or Immigration yet those were the deciding factors for a lot of people who most likely didn't look into the actual issues of staying or leaving.

Expecting the public to make informed decisions based on research and impartiality is incredibly naive.

Is your first paragraph referring to Kizzy's post or your later one?

In the first instance, I'm aftaid that it WAS about me. I am a member of Joe Public.

In the second instance, it is ALSO about me, because you elected to QUOTE my post and COMMENT upon it.

Your claim that I am tarring myself with the same brush is totally ludicrous Dezzy.

The demeaning post which I rightfully objected to did not state; "Joe Public but excluding Kirk".

I need NO excuse to be outraged by some of the posts on here which repeatedly demean Brexit voters as being stupid, clueless, ill informed or worse.

The text which I have emboldened is redundant if you are addressing that to me Dezzy, because I have never stated ANYWHERE any opinion which contradicts what you say in it, and that is because I AGREE with you. Some people on BOTH sides DID vote after being persuaded by sound bites and headlines.

However, SOME people is a far cry from all 'Joe Public' - which IS what I responded to.

I will take exception to your claims below however:

"most people don't understand that leaving the EU changes very little in terms of laws or Immigration yet those were the deciding factors for a lot of people who most likely didn't look into the actual issues of staying or leaving."

Simply because NO ONE KNOWS just WHAT existing actualities will or will not be affected or changed by Brexit. We have NOT even Brexited proper yet, and the WHATEVER plans the Government is working on is not being revealed to anyone.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Is your first paragraph referring to Kizzy's post or your later one?

In the first instance, I'm aftaid that it WAS about me. I am a member of Joe Public.

In the second instance, it is ALSO about me, because you elected to QUOTE my post and COMMENT upon it.

Your claim that I am tarring myself with the same brush is totally ludicrous Dezzy.

The demeaning post which I rightfully objected to did not state; "Joe Public but excluding Kirk".

I need NO excuse to be outraged by some of the posts on here which repeatedly demean Brexit voters as being stupid, clueless, ill informed or worse.

The text which I have emboldened is redundant if you are addressing that to me Dezzy, because I have never stated ANYWHERE any opinion which contradicts what you say in it, and that is because I AGREE with you. Some people on BOTH sides DID vote after being persuaded by sound bites and headlines.

However, SOME people is a far cry from all 'Joe Public' - which IS what I responded to.

I will take exception to your claims below however:

"most people don't understand that leaving the EU changes very little in terms of laws or Immigration yet those were the deciding factors for a lot of people who most likely didn't look into the actual issues of staying or leaving."

Simply because NO ONE KNOWS just WHAT existing actualities will or will not be affected or changed by Brexit. We have NOT even Brexited proper yet, and the WHATEVER plans the Government is working on is not being revealed to anyone.

You replied to my posts, none of which referred to or acknowledged you in any way. Like I said before, what I said has nothing to do with you and if you decide to tar yourself with that brush just so you can get mad about it then that's on you.

In terms of Laws or Immigration, nothing is likely to change, especially if we wish to strike a deal to enter the single market. The only affect that the Brexit has had so far is to decrease the value of the pound which is worrying in itself considering the announcement alone did that.

[James]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..Jack_ posted this article in another thread yesterday and it's an excellent read...

https://www.theguardian.com/membersh...uncie-election

..I know it's only one person's take on one American 'middletown' so not necessarily a complete representative or even accurate, we don't know but it does make so much sense also and interestingly suggests that 'character' doesn't play that big a part, with some who voted for Trump possibly not even liking anything about his character, feeling he has nothing to admire about him at all or to be able to relate to etc...but more that he just doesn't represent what is felt has taken away virtually everything that 'middletowns' have been built on, stripped away generations of familiars and left a feeling of such 'abandonment'...immigration is a factor as well and all of the other things that have been mentioned over time, it's a mixture of all of it to the point of a disillusioned society and Hilary, being establishment represented that disillusionment...her 'corruption' not being such a factor and Trump's prejudices not so much either.../it's just the biggest ENOUGH..!!!!!!!!!!!...ever, in saying...where do we fit in, what happened to our world and what did you all governments do for our benefit in progression.../anyways, it's an excellent read if you have time, James...

I've skimmed that article. Here's another one that was linked on here before - http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reason...e-talks-about/

Some people in America will always vote Republican and some Democrat - there's a culture war. There's a group in the middle which decides which way presidential elections go, and from what I can see, I really think the main reason Trump won was that Hillary is so disliked by so many people.

It wasn't really a vote in favour of Trump, and what he's said, but a vote against Hillary. A different candidate would probably have beaten Trump.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You replied to my posts, none of which referred to or acknowledged you in any way. Like I said before, what I said has nothing to do with you and if you decide to tar yourself with that brush just so you can get mad about it then that's on you.

WHAT??? YOU QUOTED ME FIRST AND COMMENTED - HERE IT IS:


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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirklancaster View Post
I am a member of 'Joe Public'and so are DOZENS of my friends and associates as are dozens more of people who I could best term 'acquaintances', and we ALL voted for Brexit.

Among these people are four Company Directors, two Doctors, two Solicitors, several Nurses, three Policemen, several Teachers, and several SME business owners, as well as dozens of 'Blue Collar Workers, several unemployed and quite a few 'Ducker And Divers'.

The one other thing which we all have in common - apart from our Brexit vote - is that ALL of us understand the real issues concerning the EU and our membership of it.

So while you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you will forgive me if I elect not to pay heed to it, and this is based upon the fact - that in my opinion, which I am as EQUALLY entitled to - it is ALL YOUR posts which are so ill informed and erroneous as to the true facts concerning current affairs, including politics and the EU, that they attest to YOU having the woeful LACK of any REAL understanding of the issues often debated on here, NOT 'Joe Public'."

And none of this has any effect on the majority of people on both sides who likely voted what they voted for based on soundbites and sensationalism rather than solid facts.
__________________

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;9063850]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

While I can agree with most of what you say there, it is I think unfair the criticism you make of the person you are getting at again.

Originally Posted by joeysteele

NOTE: Though the distinctions are often extremely difficult to keep separate, I am referring in this response to OPINIONS and POSTS and NOT to members personally.

Kizzy is the one who 'criticised' and slurred 'Joe Public' in this post Joey, and because I am a member of 'Joe Public', I took offense at being so labelled, in such an overly simplistic and casually demeaning manner.

I am getting at no one. I am RESPONDING to posts which I do not agree with - ESPECIALLY posts such as this particular one, which ridiculously attempt to denigrate those members of the public who voted for Brexit - Not for the first time in posts by this poster either - and I am a member of the public who voted for Brexit.

"This was the problem in the USA election which must have turned off many voters there by the personal slurs on the other by each candidate.
Neither gained any moral high ground there."

The above is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT in this context Joey, because I have not cast any 'Personal Slurs' against anyone, but taken into consideration with your GROUNDLESS accusation above that I am 'getting at' this poster 'again', you are beginning to appear to be disingenuously and unfairly attempting to persuade the reader that I am 'victimising' someone, and this is unforgivable.

I am merely RESPONDING to a post which I do not agree with.

"Her views areas relevant as anyone elses and just because they are at odds with yours does not make them ill informed or erroneous."


In stating the above, you are TOTALLY wrong.

In MY personal opinion, based upon MY intellect, MY knowledge, and My intuition, 'Her views are both ill informed AND erroneous and THEREFORE they are most certainly NOT relevant to me.

HOW can they be?

Do you REALLY pay CREDENCE to views and statements which with EVERY FIBRE of your being you DEEM to be WRONG?

If I said that "in my opinion the Klu Klux Klan were all nice people who were just misunderstood" - Are you REALLY gong to try to tell me that you would say that my view is as relevant as some other member who declared them to be "sick evil, racist lunatics"?

No, I would hope, that based upon YOUR intellect, YOUR knowledge, and YOUR intuition, you would say that my view of the KKK is 'ill informed and totally erroneous'

"However how the EU gets in here is a little mystifying... "

The post is about Brexit and you are 'mystified as to How the Eu gets in here' Joey?

"...but Kirk, we are all Joe Public, not just you and those you know personally.

Also the other Joe Publics equally will have people they know well, are acquaintances or who they just know of such as you list as who voted leave, who also voted remain.

You haven't a monopoly on those groups, just as no one else has who is Joe public."

None of the above is relevant at all Joey, because I do not concern myself with anyone else outside of 'my group' because I do not know them or their political leanings, nor whether they voted Brexit or not, so I would not even consider trying to speak o their behalf - Why would I??

I am concerned only with rebutting a totally ludicrous statement which demeans me personally - and those members of 'Joe Public' who I DO KNOW who also voted Brexit, and I use them to support my rebuttal that not all 'Joe Public' are as clueless as the poster insinuates in her post.

"The people who voted remain, also know what they voting foe, Joe public and all the groups who did so that you list."


The above is a redundant statement Joey, because NOWHERE do I say that those voting Remain do not know what they are voting for.

"I do have to say, I asked many questions on here just as to what leaving meant and no leave voter told me anything concrete.
The only answer I got was they didn't want the EU making our laws."

Again, the above is totally irrelevant to the context here Joey of whether 'Joe Public' is clueless or not.

"Remain voters in my view voted for the status quo,knowing how all was and would not liekly change.
Leave voters probably voted for different reasons, some just for change, some for making our own laws, some immigration, some as to the single market and some for all of those things probably too.
Not all however.

So,I wanted to try to heed what others were saying opposite to me but I got nothing concrete at all,that could persuade me that the UK would do better out of the EU.
If I could have believed that, I would have thought about my vote more.
I listened to what you and most said,( when they were not personally insulting about it).
I was one who also realised remain was not going to win and in fact kept telling you that leave would get a result.

Anyway, all the people and groups you list that you know who voted to leave is fine but that is not the only story.
Those who voted remain probably the majority of them too have the same sets of people and professions they know, and know of as well who also voted as they did,remain too.
We are all Joe public however, not just you and those you know who think like you do.
Just as I am Joe public and those I know are not the only Joe public either."


I have nort disputed any of the above Joey, but, sorry, once again, NONE of it is relevant to my post or the post which my post was a response to.

All members posts are relevant Kirk unless they insult another member.
Not just yours, mine or anyone elses.

I said how had brexit got on here because this is a Hillary Clinton thread.
A perfectly relevant question.

As to the point and raising the KKK, for goodness sake, you cannot be deemed fully accurate at all in what you say people who voted leave actually were voting for.
All they voted for was to leave as members of the EU nothing more was on that ballot paper.

Many issues revolve around that and they were not asked about those sets of individual issues.

Of course anyone could say the KKK is a bad organisation, we know that for sure from all their activities, you however just as I do not either, cannot say with full confidence that everyone who voted leave from Joe public, voted for one issue, several or a whole host of them.or that many just voted for change.

You cannot speak for all who voted leave,not at all.
So no points are irrelevant from others as you try to make out and none are erroneous or ill informed.

Also it is totally relevant to have included the USA election in that post as this is related to Hillary Clinton and that election anyway as a thread.
I said the getting at people likely turned off voters and the example then on here as getting at someone just because of an opposing view, is also a turn off to real and reasoned debate.

Your reference to the other member described their posts,all their posts not just one, 'all posts' from politics to foreign affairs and the EU, were ill informed and erroneous.
Showing a woeful lack of understanding on the issues by that member'.
Your words.

That is hardly showing any respect to that member at all who actually never mentioned you anyway in theirs.

Leave has not the monopoly on right as to the way to leave, only that we should leave as members of the EU.
All of Joe public have to live in the UK not just the leave voters.

There are going to be many roads and ways and separate issues as to leaving, you have not the right one, I have not the right one, and in fact it seems 'no one' has any idea at present what the right one is anyway.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

WHAT??? YOU QUOTED ME FIRST AND COMMENTED - HERE IT IS:


Today, 12:15 PM #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirklancaster View Post
I am a member of 'Joe Public'and so are DOZENS of my friends and associates as are dozens more of people who I could best term 'acquaintances', and we ALL voted for Brexit.

Among these people are four Company Directors, two Doctors, two Solicitors, several Nurses, three Policemen, several Teachers, and several SME business owners, as well as dozens of 'Blue Collar Workers, several unemployed and quite a few 'Ducker And Divers'.

The one other thing which we all have in common - apart from our Brexit vote - is that ALL of us understand the real issues concerning the EU and our membership of it.

So while you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, you will forgive me if I elect not to pay heed to it, and this is based upon the fact - that in my opinion, which I am as EQUALLY entitled to - it is ALL YOUR posts which are so ill informed and erroneous as to the true facts concerning current affairs, including politics and the EU, that they attest to YOU having the woeful LACK of any REAL understanding of the issues often debated on here, NOT 'Joe Public'."

And none of this has any effect on the majority of people on both sides who likely voted what they voted for based on soundbites and sensationalism rather than solid facts.
__________________

Just because you didn't quote my post doesn't mean that post wasn't aimed at me for saying that a lot of the public are uninformed and don't pay attention to the actual issues.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by James

I've skimmed that article. Here's another one that was linked on here before - http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reason...e-talks-about/

Some people in America will always vote Republican and some Democrat - there's a culture war. There's a group in the middle which decides which way presidential elections go, and from what I can see, I really think the main reason Trump won was that Hillary is so disliked by so many people.

It wasn't really a vote in favour of Trump, and what he's said, but a vote against Hillary. A different candidate would probably have beaten Trump.

I agree with that too. It is "anecdotal" of course but while I was over there practically every person we spoke to, spoke of how much they disliked both candidates but disliked Hillary more...alot more

[James]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It went back and forth for ages iirc and plus it doesn't really disprove what I'm saying about a lot of people not really being informed.

Brexit mostly became a vote on immigration by the end although leaving the EU would have little effect on our immigration policies. Most people likely voted Leave or Remain on that issue alone although neither option would have an affect on it. That's rather uninformed.

I'd say the Leave vote was the product of 25+ years of Euroscepticism and negative coverage about the European Union / Community, and moves for ever-closer union.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Just because you didn't quote my post doesn't mean that post wasn't aimed at me for saying that a lot of the public are uninformed and don't pay attention to the actual issues.

Is this Dezzy evasive speak for: "Yes I was WRONG Kirk, I DID quote you first and commented, so you are 100% CORRECT"?

And can you PLEASE interpret what it is you are EXACTLY saying below Dezzy because I honestly do not know, so I cannot respond.

"Just because you didn't quote my post doesn't mean that post wasn't aimed at me for saying that a lot of the public are uninformed and don't pay attention to the actual issues."

WHICH post of yours out of the hundreds which I have NOT quoted are you referring to?

Why would I aim any post at you WITHOUT quoting - THAT is not my style.

All that I am TRYING to do on here - as ALWAYS - is debate HONESTLY and FAIRLY and CIVILLY without being drawn into personal arguments.