[Ammi]

..I think the thing is for me with 'facts/truth' etc, much like statistics really which is why I don't really do statistics very much...is that depending what site used/which media coverage etc, those facts and truths that we're looking for can be found to fit our own personal views and thoughts...because there are so many 'truths' to most situations.../personally I just prefer to hear an individual's own take on things, listen to their perspective and thoughts etc...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I think the thing is for me with 'facts/truth' etc, much like statistics really which is why I don't really do statistics very much...is that depending what site used/which media coverage etc, those facts and truths that we're looking for can be found to fit our own personal views and thoughts...because there are so many 'truths' to most situations.../personally I just prefer to hear an individual's own take on things, listen to their perspective and thoughts etc...

There is only ONE truth to a truth though Ammi.

That truth can be presented in an article which is imbued with the author's own prejudices, but the kernel of that truth remains.

Take this thread topic for example;

It is BEYOND any refutation or denial, that these two immigrants burnt down the Asylum Centre - whether that fact is surrounded by perceived Right Wing anti-immigrant rhetoric in the Dail Mail, or Left Wing rhetoric in The Morning Star.

No ONE can deny that Thomas Mair murdered poor Jo Cox - no matter which source such a report hails from.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

There is only ONE truth to a truth though Ammi.

That truth can be presented in an article which is imbued with the author's own prejudices, but the kernel of that truth remains.

Take this thread topic for example;

It is BEYOND any refutation or denial, that these two immigrants burnt down the Asylum Centre - whether that fact is surrounded by perceived Right Wing anti-immigrant rhetoric in the Dail Mail, or Left Wing rhetoric in The Morning Star.

No ONE can deny that Thomas Mair murdered poor Jo Cox - no matter which source such a report hails from.

...no obviously not Kirk, well I presume not, that isn't in question but there would be very little to debate with that, just reporting...it's the so many other perspectives of media coverage/portrayal etc/how we view those which present the debate though with these things.../that's how things branch off and debates are formed surely...like the headline that some media adopted in saying this was about gummibears etc...that's an emotional head-line, it's not using the facts that led to this, it's attention grabbing and leads to a very negative for all immigrants because if two people were responsible and did this/which is apparent..?...then the other however many immigrants in that camp had no part in it...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...no obviously not Kirk, well I presume not, that isn't in question but there would be very little to debate with that, just reporting...it's the so many other perspectives of media coverage/portrayal etc/how we view those which present the debate though with these things.../that's how things branch off and debates are formed surely...like the headline that some media adopted in saying this was about gummibears etc...that's an emotional head-line, it's not using the facts that led to this, it's attention grabbing and leads to a very negative for all immigrants because if two people were responsible and did this/which is apparent..?...then the other however many immigrants in that camp had no part in it...

Which is exactly why I emboldened the text below in my OP:

German Red Cross Kitchen Master Stefan Gross said: “Most [migrants] were satisfied. There are always very few who complain.

This endorses what I said about the word 'Some' Ammi. I tried and do try to be fair in my posts, and I realise that THE MAJORITY of the immigrants there were grateful and not complaining, but that does not alter or obliterate the fact that SOME immigrants - who SHOULD have been grateful for being taken in, helped, accommodated, fed and otherwise nurtured - DID repay that charity and generosity of spirit by DEMANDING and COMPLAINING and ultimately committing ARSON with no thought for even the safety of their fellow migrants.

As with Islamic Extremists entering Europe by covertly posing as 'Refugees' - it does not take more than one or two to take huge numbers of lives.

If the lack of confectionary was not THE main reason for the protest and Arson, it was a PART of the complaints, so it is extremely pedantic and diversionary for SOME to be condemning any error in the minor details when NOT ONE WORD OF CONDEMNATION has been forthcoming from them in respect of the two immigrants actually committing this atrocious and potentially murderous crime.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...no obviously not Kirk, well I presume not, that isn't in question but there would be very little to debate with that, just reporting...it's the so many other perspectives of media coverage/portrayal etc/how we view those which present the debate though with these things.../that's how things branch off and debates are formed surely...like the headline that some media adopted in saying this was about gummibears etc...that's an emotional head-line, it's not using the facts that led to this, it's attention grabbing and leads to a very negative for all immigrants because if two people were responsible and did this/which is apparent..?...then the other however many immigrants in that camp had no part in it...

The nutella and gummibears thing I imagine is probably a quote from someone...so could've been true, but one of those cases you needed more first hand knowledge in order to verify... (or at least better sources)...because it is a little unbelievable, no matter your political affiliation, to believe such a headline when many outfits will stretch the truth just the same without evidence. Whose to say they didn't "improve" upon the original headline using a known food list... it wouldn't technically be a lie

Even if it is over candy, that's the trigger, but what were they really upset about?... many would say. Unless the perp himself is on video saying that's why he did it... the response, well maybe he's mental. Which isn't too far off from my own logic when it comes to some criminal behavior... who goes out of their way to ruin a building, get locked up... over food.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Maru

The nutella and gummibears thing I imagine is probably a quote from someone...so could've been true, but one of those cases you needed more first hand knowledge in order to verify... (or at least better sources)...because it is a little unbelievable, no matter your political affiliation, to believe such a headline when many outfits will stretch the truth just the same without evidence. Whose to say they didn't "improve" upon the original headline using a known food list... it wouldn't technically be a lie

Even if it is over candy, that's the trigger, but what were they really upset about?... many would say. Unless the perp himself is on video saying that's why he did it... the response, well maybe he's mental. Which isn't too far off from my own logic when it comes to some criminal behavior... who goes out of their way to ruin a building, get locked up... over food.

...obviously it's impossible to know all details but it would seem that it was a build up of tensions concerning some of the Iranian staff there..(I think only a very few staff, but yeah causing tensions and dissent to build..)...and then Ramadan observance being a trigger, there are a few more details but none of it really condones or justifies the actions of destruction and endangering lives...

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...obviously it's impossible to know all details but it would seem that it was a build up of tensions concerning some of the Iranian staff there..(I think only a very few staff, but yeah causing tensions and dissent to build..)...and then Ramadan observance being a trigger, there are a few more details but none of it really condones or justifies the actions of destruction and endangering lives...

That narrative makes total sense. Though just to reiterate a point I made earlier (some pages back probably). I wouldn't discount fights over something as basic as candy being one of the reasons, just because people here have fought over minor things as such and stabbed others, flooded cells, started riots, etc... all behaviors common among criminals. Not showing good judgement, anger management issues, going off at the slightest of offense, feeling the need to pick a fight to prove some sort of point... or the ones who just do things because they can get away with it. On the other hand some know exactly what they're doing... meanwhile another half just does it because they can. To me, doesn't mean that migrants == criminals as it's more a statement of the individual(s) who are indeed criminals in their own right... any population you let in, there will always be a crop of such. 1 is too many for some of us when you consider that the Western World has basically been at war with radical Islam for the past 15 years... so giving them any chance to find a foothold here is a big no no... though as the elections have clearly proven, our populations don't necessarily agree on that sentiment anymore. For me, it is hard to believe there are kids now in high school who weren't even alive during 9/11... and soon they too will be voting age.

If this happened in the US, it'd probably be dumbed down to "Muslim refugees" retaliating at a center, etc...I don't think the reasoning would really matter in the long run, as the aftermath would leave a huge mess and the details would be lost. For being a nation made up of other cultures, we're not so tolerant of those coming in and changing with our preconceived paradigms... but then we've never had to be concerned with easily crossable boundaries such as those in the Europe. Had 9/11 not happened, perhaps things would be very different too and maybe would be more willing to welcome more in... as I seem to recall the US being warmer about these things back then. Not really sure though what we would've done... but I ponder...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

That narrative makes total sense. Though just to reiterate a point I made earlier (some pages back probably). I wouldn't discount fights over something as basic as candy being one of the reasons, just because people here have fought over minor things as such and stabbed others, flooded cells, started riots, etc... all behaviors common among criminals. Not showing good judgement, anger management issues, going off at the slightest of offense, feeling the need to pick a fight to prove some sort of point... or the ones who just do things because they can get away with it. On the other hand some know exactly what they're doing... meanwhile another half just does it because they can. To me, doesn't mean that migrants == criminals as it's more a statement of the individual(s) who are indeed criminals in their own right... any population you let in, there will always be a crop of such. 1 is too many for some of us when you consider that the Western World has basically been at war with radical Islam for the past 15 years... so giving them any chance to find a foothold here is a big no no... though as the elections have clearly proven, our populations don't necessarily agree on that sentiment anymore. For me, it is hard to believe there are kids now in high school who weren't even alive during 9/11... and soon they too will be voting age.

If this happened in the US, it'd probably be dumbed down to "Muslim refugees" retaliating at a center, etc...I don't think the reasoning would really matter in the long run, as the aftermath would leave a huge mess and the details would be lost. For being a nation made up of other cultures, we're not so tolerant of those coming in and changing with our preconceived paradigms... but then we've never had to be concerned with easily crossable boundaries such as those in the Europe. Had 9/11 not happened, perhaps things would be very different too and maybe would be more willing to welcome more in... as I seem to recall the US being warmer about these things back then. Not really sure though what we would've done... but I ponder...

Another great post with one valid comment after another.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Maru

That narrative makes total sense. Though just to reiterate a point I made earlier (some pages back probably). I wouldn't discount fights over something as basic as candy being one of the reasons, just because people here have fought over minor things as such and stabbed others, flooded cells, started riots, etc... all behaviors common among criminals. Not showing good judgement, anger management issues, going off at the slightest of offense, feeling the need to pick a fight to prove some sort of point... or the ones who just do things because they can get away with it. On the other hand some know exactly what they're doing... meanwhile another half just does it because they can. To me, doesn't mean that migrants == criminals as it's more a statement of the individual(s) who are indeed criminals in their own right... any population you let in, there will always be a crop of such. 1 is too many for some of us when you consider that the Western World has basically been at war with radical Islam for the past 15 years... so giving them any chance to find a foothold here is a big no no... though as the elections have clearly proven, our populations don't necessarily agree on that sentiment anymore. For me, it is hard to believe there are kids now in high school who weren't even alive during 9/11... and soon they too will be voting age.

If this happened in the US, it'd probably be dumbed down to "Muslim refugees" retaliating at a center, etc...I don't think the reasoning would really matter in the long run, as the aftermath would leave a huge mess and the details would be lost. For being a nation made up of other cultures, we're not so tolerant of those coming in and changing with our preconceived paradigms... but then we've never had to be concerned with easily crossable boundaries such as those in the Europe. Had 9/11 not happened, perhaps things would be very different too and maybe would be more willing to welcome more in... as I seem to recall the US being warmer about these things back then. Not really sure though what we would've done... but I ponder...

..yeah I think for me the opening up of Europe and being more assessable has been a great positive and something I've enjoyed being part of but then that same opening up has also meant an opening up to those extremes that would mean us harm as well, I understand that and it's keeping perspective there also.../that's always sadly going to be the way...these two men were extreme in their actions, there is no excuse for what they did..the camps conditions are grim but they're the same for everyone, equally as grim, you know...and very hard for the local people as well, which is where it would appear most of the hostile actions have come from, from the link I think you posted Maru.../so just very difficult for everyone and a huge 'build up' also...and that is often the way as well, the thing that 'tips that balance' between coping and not coping through such struggling times and these actions can often be something that can appear quite small to some but it has become a huge thing in that person's world and environment...'that point where reason and rational has gone'.... everyone has the ability to reach that but their specific actions and reactions etc are still accountable for completely...