[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by arista

Transgender Folks must stay Out of UK Jails
sadly 4 have Died



Ref: BBC World News TV 5:42AM

No, many get killed in jail as they are full of dangerous people, so best to avoid indulging in behaviour likely to send you there. Transgender inmates are no different and should not be given special treatment.

[user104658]

Poor mental health / disregard for mental health issues in general, and crime, are linked more than most people care to admit. The systemic failings are occurring long, long before the stage of someone being in prison. That applies across the board. People are looking to solve problems in all the wrong places.

Of course, as always, it's lovely to see all of the outpourings of empathy being offered. "They shudn't have did a crime then lol". But that of course is the majority opinion of simple simon public and so we come nicely back around to the reasons that these systemic failures are happening in the first place; people have little or zero desire to understand, much less care about, anyone who "isn't like them".

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Poor mental health / disregard for mental health issues in general, and crime, are linked more than most people care to admit. The systemic failings are occurring long, long before the stage of someone being in prison. That applies across the board. People are looking to solve problems in all the wrong places.

Of course, as always, it's lovely to see all of the outpourings of empathy being offered. "They shudn't have did a crime then lol". But that of course is the majority opinion of simple simon public and so we come nicely back around to the reasons that these systemic failures are happening in the first place; people have little or zero desire to understand, much less care about, anyone who "isn't like them".

As I myself made that comment - although the missspelling and poor grammar in the paraphrasing are entirely yours - I must conclude that you regard me as "simple Simon public". In which case I expect your post to be removed any minute now according to the forum rules.

I think EVERYONE who made the comment about not doing the crime if you can't do the time, agrees that transgenders are not a special case. ALL prisoners with mental health issues should be treated the same.

If you look at the background of the particular case mentioned, you will see that this person did not identify as one thing or another until after the crime was committed. But of course, as they now identify as transgender, are we all supposed to take that at face value? Because it seems to me that some imagine that if you identify as transgender you are above reproach. Which seems a little bit of a stupid stance to take.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Poor mental health / disregard for mental health issues in general, and crime, are linked more than most people care to admit. The systemic failings are occurring long, long before the stage of someone being in prison. That applies across the board. People are looking to solve problems in all the wrong places.

Of course, as always, it's lovely to see all of the outpourings of empathy being offered. "They shudn't have did a crime then lol". But that of course is the majority opinion of simple simon public and so we come nicely back around to the reasons that these systemic failures are happening in the first place; people have little or zero desire to understand, much less care about, anyone who "isn't like them".

I'd agree it's a groupthink perspective generated by right wing media outlets to see those in prison as 'less than' and as such any fate that befalls them is squarely on their shoulders.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

They have failed in their duty of care for decades... but it's only a problem when transgender people die?

When did I say that it's only a problem when it involves transgender people? In fact I used the words 'vulnerable people' which suggests that I'm talking about anyone at risk in a prison.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Poor mental health / disregard for mental health issues in general, and crime, are linked more than most people care to admit. The systemic failings are occurring long, long before the stage of someone being in prison. That applies across the board. People are looking to solve problems in all the wrong places.

Of course, as always, it's lovely to see all of the outpourings of empathy being offered. "They shudn't have did a crime then lol". But that of course is the majority opinion of simple simon public and so we come nicely back around to the reasons that these systemic failures are happening in the first place; people have little or zero desire to understand, much less care about, anyone who "isn't like them".

The subject was about transgender prisoners who may or may not have mental health issues. I think the point being made is that many prisoners have 'problems' and may be at increased risk in that environment but why should transgender prisoners specifically receive special treatment.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

When did I say that it's only a problem when it involves transgender people? In fact I used the words 'vulnerable people' which suggests that I'm talking about anyone at risk in a prison.

You didn't. But the tone of the thread suggests some people do. It's probably a groupthink thing.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'd agree it's a groupthink perspective generated by right wing media outlets to see those in prison as 'less than' and as such any fate that befalls them is squarely on their shoulders.

I think you think purely in terms of 'left-wing and right-wing' - there seems to be no middle ground for you, when in reality most people fall somewhere in the middle.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

You didn't. But the tone of the thread suggests some people do. It's probably a groupthink thing.

I don't think it's an issue affecting only those transitioning or transitioned either, for clarification nowhere in my post does it suggest that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I think you think purely in terms of 'left-wing and right-wing' - there seems to be no middle ground for you, when in reality most people fall somewhere in the middle.

I mentioned right wing in terms of the media...not people.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

As I myself made that comment - although the missspelling and poor grammar in the paraphrasing are entirely yours - I must conclude that you regard me as "simple Simon public". In which case I expect your post to be removed any minute now according to the forum rules.

I obviously don't think you're stupid or anywhere near to it, but yes, I do think that my second paragraph applies. You seem to be very clear in THIS thread that if someone is in prison it is entirely their own fault and if they didn't want to suffer (or die?) they just should have kept their nose clean.

Except...

Hold on...

This is coming from the same person who only a few days ago was quite adamant that "soldiers are just people" and that a young soldier shouldn't go to prison for losing his cool and shooting an unarmed prisoner. That the moral considerations of his personal circumstance should over-rule the cold hard letter of the law and he should be pardoned.

The two notions are in direct contradiction. You have no idea why these prisoners (or any prisoner) is behind bars or what their life circumstances, or the circumstances of their crimes, are. Importantly, you declare quite proudly that it doesn't matter; "You give up your right to make demands once you've broken the law, in my opinion". Confused is all.

I think EVERYONE who made the comment about not doing the crime if you can't do the time, agrees that transgenders are not a special case. ALL prisoners with mental health issues should be treated the same.

Of course they should. But the point to make there is that they should all be treated with consideration and understanding, not that trans people should "put up and shut up because everyone else has to".

If you look at the background of the particular case mentioned, you will see that this person did not identify as one thing or another until after the crime was committed. But of course, as they now identify as transgender, are we all supposed to take that at face value? Because it seems to me that some imagine that if you identify as transgender you are above reproach. Which seems a little bit of a stupid stance to take.

That seems like an absolutely massive leap, and I haven't seen anyone even vaguely hint at this?

[Niamh.]

Whilst I do have massive sympathy for transgender people and understand the safety and comfort concerns for transgender prisoners, the safety and yes comfort of female inmates shouldn't be disregarded either.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Our prisons are too full to start making more exceptions, sorry.

Your kidding. Our prisons are being privatized and the private system get paid per head.

[DemolitionRed]

Ex Military form the largest occupational group in prison in England and Wales.


3.5 per cent of England and Wales’ prison population are ex-military personnel – that’s nearly 3,000 prisoners
Of these:
99.6 per cent were male
51 per cent were aged 45 or older
77 per cent were ex-Army
15 per cent were ex-Naval Service
8 per cent were ex-RAF
The highest proportion of ex-Service personnel were located in high security prisons

[arista]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Your kidding. Our prisons are being privatized and the private system get paid per head.

Yes that's what they hope
once all contracts have transferred

Of course the recent one (Riot /Fire)
is in limbo

[DemolitionRed]

Transgender people are likely to suffer from depression and gender dysphoria and are often considered a high suicide risk. Psychotherapists give therapy to more transitioning people than any other type of group and this is for transgenders not within the prison system.

Takeing a depressed/ancious person and putting them in a volatile enviroment is not the answer. Every person should be monitered case by case and that includes transgender people.

Unfortunately in a 'for profits' prison system, this is going to get worse.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I obviously don't think you're stupid or anywhere near to it, but yes, I do think that my second paragraph applies. You seem to be very clear in THIS thread that if someone is in prison it is entirely their own fault and if they didn't want to suffer (or die?) they just should have kept their nose clean.

Except...

Hold on...

This is coming from the same person who only a few days ago was quite adamant that "soldiers are just people" and that a young soldier shouldn't go to prison for losing his cool and shooting an unarmed prisoner. That the moral considerations of his personal circumstance should over-rule the cold hard letter of the law and he should be pardoned.

The two notions are in direct contradiction. You have no idea why these prisoners (or any prisoner) is behind bars or what their life circumstances, or the circumstances of their crimes, are. Importantly, you declare quite proudly that it doesn't matter; "You give up your right to make demands once you've broken the law, in my opinion". Confused is all.




Of course they should. But the point to make there is that they should all be treated with consideration and understanding, not that trans people should "put up and shut up because everyone else has to".



That seems like an absolutely massive leap, and I haven't seen anyone even vaguely hint at this?

This is a discussion about transgender people demanding special rights once they've committed a crime.

The thread to which you refer regarding service personnel was on a completely different topic and, as far as I'm aware, the services of the transgender community isn't often called for in a war zone.

Obviously I could trawl through the forum and pick out bits where you say one thing on one subject and then appear to contradict it with your comment on another subject. But that is tedious and muddies the water where a debate is concerned.

Regarding your last paragraph. Yes, ALL prisoners should be treated the same. They are there for punishment, but that doesn't mean their needs should be met, both physical and emotional. No one group should be singled out for preferential treatment because they might have suffered.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't think it's an issue affecting only those transitioning or transitioned either, for clarification nowhere in my post does it suggest that.

I was replying to Dezzy, not you.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Transgender people are likely to suffer from depression and gender dysphoria and are often considered a high suicide risk. Psychotherapists give therapy to more transitioning people than any other type of group and this is for transgenders not within the prison system.

Takeing a depressed/ancious person and putting them in a volatile enviroment is not the answer. Every person should be monitered case by case and that includes transgender people.

Unfortunately in a 'for profits' prison system, this is going to get worse.

The prison service is in as good a shape as the NHS I would say, which is a damn shame for all the good people working within the prison system that sees the terrible decline in the service.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

I was replying to Dezzy, not you.

Since when does that prohibit anyone replying to a post?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Since when does that prohibit anyone replying to a post?

It doesn't in most cases. Except that you said... "... for clarification nowhere in my post does it suggest that" implying that I'd said something about your post in my reply to Dezzy. Which I didn't.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

It doesn't in most cases. Except that you said... "... for clarification nowhere in my post does it suggest that" implying that I'd said something about your post in my reply to Dezzy. Which I didn't.

You used the word 'groupthink' I have also used that word prior to you today, I didn't want to presume you were referring to me which is why I said for clarification. If you weren't then no worries.

[Vicky.]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...untley-9626220

Was only a matter of time tbh. Maybe this will wake people up to the utter crazyness that is 'identification' over sex. Anyone who didn't think this would be abused is ****ing kidding themselves.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...untley-9626220

Was only a matter of time tbh. Maybe this will wake people up to the utter crazyness that is 'identification' over sex. Anyone who didn't think this would be abused is ****ing kidding themselves.

Seems to be mostly hearsay at the moment but if it's true that he wants to undergo a sex change for the purpose of moving to a women's prison then that's obviously crazy. I'd offer though that this would be a very extreme case and not at all representative of ordinary people who go through sex changes for the reason that they identify as the opposite sex. Any system can be abused, so even if it does happen in some cases I think it's extremely unlikely that it would become common place for prisoners to go to the extremes of sex-reassignment surgery to get into a different prison.

[Vicky.]

to go to the extremes of sex-reassignment surgery

Except thats not actually needed..hormones and a 'female' appearance is all. SRS is not a requirement...