[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah, I don't disagree with what you're saying. But it does kind of endorse the nature of the Trump protest which has mostly been carried out by people who claim to be aware of the world's injustice but seem quite blinkered in which cause they choose to stand against. (I am not referring to anyone specifically on this site, I'm making a general statement.) It's a similar position, I think, to Russia bombing the bejesus out of Aleppo and the Stop The War Coalition, who are aggressive in their opposition to the involvement of the UK and the USA but who were ominously silent about Russia. If you're going to be outraged, you're going to have to be outraged about all of them. We've hosted more odious people than Trump, and in any case, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his term of office is considerably less than four years. And I'd be happy with that.

I think this point is just plain silly and various versions of it have been brought up repeatedly in this thrad. People are allowed to care about whichever causes they want to choose to care about. They don't have to fulfill some sort of protest quota to validate their opinion.

I could probably go into any thread and say 'well that point of view is irrelevant since you don't care about all these other issues relating to the subject at hand so your opinion is invalid.' It's just a lazy way of trying to shut down someone's opinion without dealing with their argument.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think this point is just plain silly and various versions of it have been brought up repeatedly in this thrad. People are allowed to care about whichever causes they want to choose to care about. They don't have to fulfill some sort of protest quota to validate their opinion.

I could probably go into any thread and say 'well that point of view is irrelevant since you don't care about all these other issues relating to the subject at hand so your opinion is invalid.' It's just a lazy way of trying to shut down someone's opinion without dealing with their argument.

Just as people can choose to leave Europe and oppose mass immigration.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Just as people can choose to leave Europe and oppose mass immigration.

That has nothing to do with what I'm saying but okay? Thank you for stating the obvious, I guess?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

That has nothing to do with what I'm saying but okay? Thank you for stating the obvious, I guess?

It's about freedom of choice and validity of opinion so it's relevant.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It's about freedom of choice and validity of opinion so it's relevant.

Not really since I wasn't arguing against people having the right to say if they want to leave the EU or if they want immigration control?

You're basically just repeating what I've been saying all along...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Not really since I wasn't arguing against people having the right to say if they want to leave the EU or if they want immigration control?

You're basically just repeating what I've been saying all along...

It's about the principle not the subject matter. Freedom of choice is freedom of choice - it isn't for some to say they should be able to choose this but others should not be able to choose that.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It's about the principle not the subject matter. Freedom of choice is freedom of choice - it isn't for some to say they should be able to choose this but others should not be able to choose that.

Why are you basically repeating at me what I've been saying the entire thread?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think this point is just plain silly and various versions of it have been brought up repeatedly in this thrad. People are allowed to care about whichever causes they want to choose to care about. They don't have to fulfill some sort of protest quota to validate their opinion.

I could probably go into any thread and say 'well that point of view is irrelevant since you don't care about all these other issues relating to the subject at hand so your opinion is invalid.' It's just a lazy way of trying to shut down someone's opinion without dealing with their argument.

From everything I said in my thread, that's all you took? The opportunity to intimate I'm silly and lazy and like to shut down people's opinions? I think you'll find the rest of my post was relevant but you chose not to address any other part if it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

From everything I said in my thread, that's all you took? The opportunity to intimate I'm silly and lazy and like to shut down people's opinions? I think you'll find the rest of my post was relevant but you chose not to address any other part if it.

I said that the argument you were making was silly and lazy, not you.

Also your post was pretty much summed up in the part I bolded, You weren't saying anything other than the people who oppose Trump should also oppose Russia's actions in Aleppo which was essentially what you were saying in the bolded point, thus speaking about the rest of the post is pointless, it's an example not an argument.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I think this point is just plain silly and various versions of it have been brought up repeatedly in this thrad. People are allowed to care about whichever causes they want to choose to care about. They don't have to fulfill some sort of protest quota to validate their opinion.

I could probably go into any thread and say 'well that point of view is irrelevant since you don't care about all these other issues relating to the subject at hand so your opinion is invalid.' It's just a lazy way of trying to shut down someone's opinion without dealing with their argument.

It's not lazy it's pointing out blatant hypocrisy.
It's not about "not caring about all these other issues".
The post you quoted mentioned the 'Stop the war coalition'.
An obvious anti-western organisation who have been quoted as saying they "oppose the west"
"The real enemy, Mr Nineham informed listeners, is the West: “Everyone who has got a sense of duty for the peace of the planet needs to mobilise everything they can against that and that means opposing the West.”

Another quote

Take this quote from 2006 by John Rees, the national officer of Stop the War: “Socialists should unconditionally stand with the oppressed against the oppressor [a STW euphemism for the West], even if the people who run the oppressed country are undemocratic and persecute minorities, like Saddam Hussein.”

Oh and

'But in the context of STW’s other leaders, siding with Saddam is almost moderate. Its former chair, Andrew Murray, is a proud Stalinist who on the anniversary of his hero’s birth attacked "hack propagandists [who] abominate the name of Stalin beyond all others".

Unsurprisingly, he reveres North Korea, and has pointed out that his “basic position of solidarity with People[']s Korea [is] clear”.

Many of(not all) these protesters are communist and have anti western views.
It's not a lazy argument to point this out.There is a clear agenda with sections of these protests to support anyone who is not on our side.
If they're against western involvement in Syria because it is seen as unnecessary killing then why wouldn't they be against Russia who actually are brutally killing civilians and blowing up aid convoys?It's part of the same "issue".Only the worst half of it apparently slips by these people.
Everyone rallying against Trump is fine.He is a liability but there is far far worse **** going on that many of these people don't care about or in worse cases (i.e Stop the war) actually support the brutal regimes.So it does appear extremely hypocritical.When we get protests outside the Russian embassy aswell and against the brutal dictators killing people on the daily and against terror attacks on western soil then maybe anti Trump protests won't look so hypocritical.








https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.tel...?client=safari

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It's not lazy it's pointing out blatant hypocrisy.
It's not about "not caring about all these other issues".
The post you quoted mentioned the 'Stop the war coalition'.
An obvious anti-western organisation who have been quoted as saying they "oppose the west"
"The real enemy, Mr Nineham informed listeners, is the West: “Everyone who has got a sense of duty for the peace of the planet needs to mobilise everything they can against that and that means opposing the West.”

Another quote

Take this quote from 2006 by John Rees, the national officer of Stop the War: “Socialists should unconditionally stand with the oppressed against the oppressor [a STW euphemism for the West], even if the people who run the oppressed country are undemocratic and persecute minorities, like Saddam Hussein.”

Oh and

'But in the context of STW’s other leaders, siding with Saddam is almost moderate. Its former chair, Andrew Murray, is a proud Stalinist who on the anniversary of his hero’s birth attacked "hack propagandists [who] abominate the name of Stalin beyond all others".

Unsurprisingly, he reveres North Korea, and has pointed out that his “basic position of solidarity with People[']s Korea [is] clear”.

Many of(not all) these protesters are communist and have anti western views.
It's not a lazy argument to point this out.There is a clear agenda with sections of these protests to support anyone who is not on our side.
If they're against western involvement in Syria because it is seen as unnecessary killing then why wouldn't they be against Russia who actually are brutally killing civilians and blowing up aid convoys?It's part of the same "issue".Only the worst half of it apparently slips by these people.
Everyone rallying against Trump is fine.He is a liability but there is far far worse **** going on that many of these people don't care about or in worse cases (i.e Stop the war) actually support the brutal regimes.So it does appear extremely hypocritical.When we get protests outside the Russian embassy aswell and against the brutal dictators killing people on the daily and against terror attacks on western soil then maybe anti Trump protests won't look so hypocritical.








https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.tel...?client=safari

And none of this affects people's right to choose to protest Trump or any issue they personally care about.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And none of this affects people's right to choose to protest Trump or any issue they personally care about.

It's not a "silly" or "lazy" point of view though to ask just where the hell are these protesters when anyone other than our own country or the US are carrying out far worse atrocities.It is of course everyone's right to protest on whatever issue they choose.But to question what seems like a very one sided agenda is also anyone's right.Specially when an organisation called 'Stop The War' only wants to stop one side of it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It's not a "silly" or "lazy" point of view though to ask just where the hell are these protesters when anyone other than our own country or the US are carrying out far worse atrocities.It is of course everyone's right to protest on whatever issue they choose.But to question what seems like a very one sided agenda is also anyone's right.Specially when an organisation called 'Stop The War' only wants to stop one side of it.

It is silly Russia are not part of NATO are they?
There has to be a degree of realism to what you are protesting about, a protest in the country who is doing the shelling is going to have more gravitas as it shows it is not what that country wants as a people.

Of course nobody who opposes war suggests that the UK and US are wrong and Russia right, that is ridiculous.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And none of this affects people's right to choose to protest Trump or any cissue they personally care about.

No but it shows their choice is not based on any reasoned argument, just personal opinion and has bugger all to do being right.

So getting off their high horses would be appropriate if they don't want to be exposed as complete hypocrites.