[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Naturally you can't see the point, so I will spell it out for you, all through the thread we have been told slitting an animals throat and letting it bleed to death doesn't affect the animal and is kinder than stunning so maybe we can use this method to cull badgers and foxes and stray cats, if it's a kinder end for the animal where's the harm

You are comparing apples and oranges, Whether an animal is stunned or not, slitting their throat is the preferred method used in slaughterhouses because it doesn't affect the meat while the poisons and chemicals used to cull pests or euthanise pets will often affect the meat. Killing animals for food an killing pest animals are two completely different ball parks and I really should not have to state the obvious as to why that's the case.

Also nobody has said that having their throat slit does not affect the animals, a lot of people have stated that it's an awful experience either way but the non-stunning methods are quicker and cause less suffering to the animal, people have posted legitimate studies that back up these claims. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully since you seemed to have gotten the wrong end of the stick completely in regards to people's arguments.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Also nobody has said that having their throat slit does not affect the animals, a lot of people have stated that it's an awful experience either way but the non-stunning methods are quicker and cause less suffering to the animal, people have posted legitimate studies that back up these claims. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully since you seemed to have gotten the wrong end of the stick completely in regards to people's arguments.

This may be me. I have repeatedly said that cutting throats is actually a painless death, as it appears studies back up (and if there were any studies proving otherwise, I am sure they would have been found by someone by now. Maybe not cherie, but someone. I had a brief search but can't find any, but they still may exist) So if this is what Cherie means by doesn't affect the animal...then yeah I did say it. And stand by it given my experience of bad cuts with very sharp objects and how little I felt, along with the research actually specifically done on the matter.

But as DR pointed out, it obviously affects the animal in the sense that the animal dies.

Edit. Though I should maybe say, that throat cutting as a way to die...would only be painless if the cutting was done by someone skilled enough to do it right. Not an amateur throat cutting, which may not even kill the cuttee.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This may be me. I have repeatedly said that cutting throats is actually a painless death, as it appears studies back up (and if there were any studies proving otherwise, I am sure they would have been found by someone by now. Maybe not cherie, but someone. I had a brief search but can't find any, but they still may exist) So if this is what Cherie means by doesn't affect the animal...then yeah I did say it. And stand by it given my experience of bad cuts with very sharp objects and how little I felt, along with the research actually specifically done on the matter.

But as DR pointed out, it obviously affects the animal in the sense that the animal dies.

Edit. Though I should maybe say, that throat cutting as a way to die...would only be painless if the cutting was done by someone skilled enough to do it right. Not an amateur throat cutting, which may not even kill the cuttee.

TBH I hadn't bothered to look for 'proof' since it seems pretty obvious to me that having your throat cut would be unpleasant and I've found this thread somewhat bizarre personally. Since you brought it up though I did a quick Google.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ous-slaughter/

It wasn't that hard to find just a Google of 'is cutting an animals throat a painless death'.

RSPCA says a stunned animal is rendered unconscious. Which is what I'd assumed. There are several PDFs at the bottom of this article which explains why the RSPCA are opposed to halal and kosher slaughter.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...ghter/factfile

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

TBH I hadn't bothered to look for 'proof' since it seems pretty obvious to me that having your throat cut would be unpleasant and I've found this thread somewhat bizarre personally. Since you brought it up though I did a quick Google.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ous-slaughter/

It wasn't that hard to find just a Google of 'is cutting an animals throat a painless death'.

RSPCA says a stunned animal is rendered unconscious. Which is what I'd assumed. There are several PDFs at the bottom of this article which explains why the RSPCA are opposed to halal and kosher slaughter.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...ghter/factfile

of course it's going to be unpleasant, there is no "pleasant" way to kill an animal for food. Do you think hanging a chicken upside down by their legs and dunking their heads in an electrified water-bath before cutting their heads off is nicer?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

of course it's going to be unpleasant, there is no "pleasant" way to kill an animal for food. Do you think hanging a chicken upside down by their legs and dunking their heads in an electrified water-bath before cutting their heads off is nicer?

Nicer than what?

I've already said I am bothered by slaughter and dont find any of it nice. I would prefer slaughtered animals to be treated as humanely as possible since I am unlikely to stop the UK consuming meat personally. You are taking issue with that and not with those promoting stringing it upside down, cutting its throat and letting it bleed to death. Are you upset because Im not a vegan but fine that others arent? Not getting where you are coming from here.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Nicer than what?

I've already said I am bothered by slaughter and dont find any of it nice. I would prefer slaughtered animals to be treated as humanely as possible since I am unlikely to stop the UK consuming meat personally. You are taking issue with that and not with those promoting stringing it upside down, cutting its throat and letting it bleed to death. Are you upset because Im not a vegan but fine that others arent? Not getting where you are coming from here.

Nicer than the part of your post that I highlighted............

"it seems pretty obvious to me that having your throat cut would be unpleasant"

I'm not taking issue with you wanting the animals to have a nicer death (if there is such a thing) I'm saying the way they die in our slaughterhouses are horrendous as well. I've no idea what you're on about with me wanting you to be vegan lol I couldn't care less what you do or do not eat

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Nicer than the part of your post that I highlighted............

"it seems pretty obvious to me that having your throat cut would be unpleasant"

I'm not taking issue with you wanting the animals to have a nicer death (if there is such a thing) I'm saying the way they die in our slaughterhouses are horrendous as well. I've no idea what you're on about with me wanting you to be vegan lol I couldn't care less what you do or do not eat

Perhaps I misread what you were trying to say. I'll stick with the RSPCA opinion myself rather than forum.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This may be me. I have repeatedly said that cutting throats is actually a painless death, as it appears studies back up (and if there were any studies proving otherwise, I am sure they would have been found by someone by now. Maybe not cherie, but someone. I had a brief search but can't find any, but they still may exist) So if this is what Cherie means by doesn't affect the animal...then yeah I did say it. And stand by it given my experience of bad cuts with very sharp objects and how little I felt, along with the research actually specifically done on the matter.

But as DR pointed out, it obviously affects the animal in the sense that the animal dies.

Edit. Though I should maybe say, that throat cutting as a way to die...would only be painless if the cutting was done by someone skilled enough to do it right. Not an amateur throat cutting, which may not even kill the cuttee.

Thanks Vicky, I was trying to draw the comparison as to whey we accept animals throats being slit in certain situations but not in others, not everyone gets what I am trying to say or pretends not to, I always find you very honest in your thoughts and appreciate that you do not move the goalposts every five minutes, you truly are very fair and balanced and always happy to try and see the other side, I must try and be more like you

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Thanks Vicky, I was trying to draw the comparison as to why we accept animals throats being slit in certain situations but not in others, not everyone gets what I am trying to say or pretends not to

I don't think people don't get it or pretend not to, it's just a moot question when it comes to slaughter methods? Because all you're really asking is "Why do we accept animals being killed and eaten in certain situations but not in others", which is a totally different debate about vegitarianism... it has nothing to do with the throat-slitting. Unless you're happy to see people wandering around killing and eating the neighborhood cats so long as they stun them first .

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think people don't get it or pretend not to, it's just a moot question when it comes to slaughter methods? Because all you're really asking is "Why do we accept animals being killed and eaten in certain situations but not in others", which is a totally different debate about vegitarianism... it has nothing to do with the throat-slitting. Unless you're happy to see people wandering around killing and eating the neighborhood cats so long as they stun them first :think:.

For the 100th time there is a train of thought on this thread that throat slitting causes no pain... so if people believe that they should have no issue with animals being killed in this way outside the meat industry, I can't put in in simpler terms.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

For the 100th time there is a train of thought on this thread that throat slitting causes no pain... so if people believe that they should have no issue with animals being killed in this way outside the meat industry, I can't put in in simpler terms.

But that's just bizarre if your argument is that it's not OK simply because of the pain issue? I mean, I can pretty much guarantee that strapping a grenade to a cat will cause no pain... so your argument is that people should have "no issue" with people blowing up Old Grandma Smith's tabby because it won't feel it?

The reason people have a problem with the idea of going around killing people's pets isn't "because it hurts" .

"HAHA I just killed your cat!!"
"WHAT??!? Oh... oh my god... what did you do to him... did you stamp him to death? Did you hurt him and cut him and stuff?"
"Nah, I electrocuted him so he passed out, then killed him while he was unconscious. He won't have felt a thing"
"Oh thank goodness. That's fine then."

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But that's just bizarre if your argument is that it's not OK simply because of the pain issue? I mean, I can pretty much guarantee that strapping a grenade to a cat will cause no pain... so your argument is that people should have "no issue" with people blowing up Old Grandma Smith's tabby because it won't feel it?

The reason people have a problem with the idea of going around killing people's pets isn't "because it hurts" .

"HAHA I just killed your cat!!"
"WHAT??!? Oh... oh my god... what did you do to him... did you stamp him to death? Did you hurt him and cut him and stuff?"
"Nah, I electrocuted him so he passed out, then killed him while he was unconscious. He won't have felt a thing"
"Oh thank goodness. That's fine then."

I have no idea what you are talking about none of the above applies to my point.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But that's just bizarre if your argument is that it's not OK simply because of the pain issue? I mean, I can pretty much guarantee that strapping a grenade to a cat will cause no pain... so your argument is that people should have "no issue" with people blowing up Old Grandma Smith's tabby because it won't feel it?

The reason people have a problem with the idea of going around killing people's pets isn't "because it hurts" .

"HAHA I just killed your cat!!"
"WHAT??!? Oh... oh my god... what did you do to him... did you stamp him to death? Did you hurt him and cut him and stuff?"
"Nah, I electrocuted him so he passed out, then killed him while he was unconscious. He won't have felt a thing"
"Oh thank goodness. That's fine then."

Actually we have a serial cat killer in the south and people are very upset about how it's done.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You are comparing apples and oranges, Whether an animal is stunned or not, slitting their throat is the preferred method used in slaughterhouses because it doesn't affect the meat while the poisons and chemicals used to cull pests or euthanise pets will often affect the meat. Killing animals for food an killing pest animals are two completely different ball parks and I really should not have to state the obvious as to why that's the case.

Also nobody has said that having their throat slit does not affect the animals, a lot of people have stated that it's an awful experience either way but the non-stunning methods are quicker and cause less suffering to the animal, people have posted legitimate studies that back up these claims. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully since you seemed to have gotten the wrong end of the stick completely in regards to people's arguments.

Perhaps you should take your own advice given what Vicky has just posted.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Perhaps you should take your own advice given what Vicky has just posted.

You equated one person's arguments with everyone's and you've been ignoring evidence that proves what you are saying wrong and instead you're trying to take the thread off topic by talking down to people by acting like people don't understand what you are saying when it's the opposite, everyone understands what you are saying and it's nonsense.

Culling wild pests and putting pets to sleep is a completely different ball game to killing animals for meat. You are getting off topic in an attempt to move the goalposts because your argument that Halal slaughter is cruel in comparison to western methods simply does not hold water and there is scientific proof from multiple sources provided in this topic that prove what you believe simply isn't true.

This topic is about whether it's more cruel to stun an animal before killing it or not and the science tells us that stunning animals prior to slitting their throat causes them more distress than just slitting their throat and ending it in few seconds. The Culling of wild animals and such has no relevance in this thread and it's just your attempt to obfuscate the discussion.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You equated one person's arguments with everyone's and you've been ignoring evidence that proves what you are saying wrong and instead you're trying to take the thread off topic by talking down to people by acting like people don't understand what you are saying when it's the opposite, everyone understands what you are saying and it's nonsense.

Culling wild pests and putting pets to sleep is a completely different ball game to killing animals for meat. You are getting off topic in an attempt to move the goalposts because your argument that Halal slaughter is cruel in comparison to western methods simply does not hold water and there is scientific proof from multiple sources provided in this topic that prove what you believe simply isn't true.

This topic is about whether it's more cruel to stun an animal before killing it or not and the science tells us that stunning animals prior to slitting their throat causes them more distress than just slitting their throat and ending it in few seconds. The Culling of wild animals and such has no relevance in this thread and it's just your attempt to obfuscate the discussion.

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

If you're going to ignore what I've said just to make snide comments then I have my answer. You have nothing useful to add to this topic and you are floundering.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you're going to ignore what I've said just to make snide comments then I have my answer. You have nothing useful to add to this topic and you are floundering.

You are making misrepresentations about my posts

Did Niamh and DR contribute to the painless stabbing conversation or not?


Once you have confirmed I will be delighted to continue with my useful observations.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

You are making misrepresentations about my posts

Did Niamh and DR contribute to the painless stabbing conversation or not?


Once you have confirmed I will be delighted to continue with my useful observations.

Why are you asking me to clarify things that other people have said? Ask them.

If you refuse to add anything to the topic then you have already lost the debate. I won't play along with your trolling anymore, either get back on topic and actually try to debate or admit you are wrong.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

Mine was an anecdotal story about something that happened to me I wasn't using that as proof of anything. I've never had my throat slit, I'm sure it's awful . The only point I was ever trying to make in this thread is that the way animals are killed for meat is horrible in general and I didn't think there should be any kind of a moral platform with it no matter what side you're coming from, they're all morally wrong imo (and I say that as a meat eater)

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Mine was an anecdotal story about something that happened to me I wasn't using that as proof of anything. I've never had my throat slit, I'm sure it's awful . The only point I was ever trying to make in this thread is that the way animals are killed for meat is horrible in general and I didn't think there should be any kind of a moral platform with it no matter what side you're coming from, they're all morally wrong imo (and I say that as a meat eater)

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

So I spend the whole thread saying that I think both are horrendous but you choose to ignore all of those posts and pick one where I told a personal story to Vicky that happened to me and decided that therefore I was lying in all my other posts? I have never had my throat cut I don't know what that feels like but I'm sure it is ****, I'm also sure getting hung upside down and dipped in an electrified bath before getting my head cut off is **** too. I'm not denying that halal slaughter is horrible, I'm sure Kosher slaughter is horrible, I'm also sure western slaughter is horrible but you seem to think that's fine, so you're the one pretending that some slaughter is just fine not me

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

you provided anecdonal evidence? it's there, its on the thread, its not just Vicky as Dezzy seems to think

It was just Vicky (from what I have read) that was claiming that cutting an animals throat is completely painless though. Which was what i thought the argument was about and why I quickly said that yes, I did say that.

My main reasons for such statements were anecdotal of course. The worse the sudden injury is, the less it hurts (cuts and such, breaks are an entirely different ballgame) as a rule, going on what others say regularly about such injuries, and personal experience. I purposely cut my own hand with a piece of glass when I was a teen (I can show you the scar if you like, so you know I am not making this up for the sake of argument ) to stupidly try and prove that this glass was not sharp (spoiler...it ****ing was, clearly)

I swear to god, I felt no pain and even said 'hah, see I was right' before watching the blood drain from my friends faces as they saw all of the blood. And even after seeing the blood I felt nothing. To the point where I (as a morbid person in general) was finding it quite funny to chase my best mate about showing him the tendons, which were clearly visible from the depth of the cut, inside my hand. I felt no pain at all until a good 20 minutes after doing it. And even the pain that came then was not pain as such, it was more...stinging...I assume the start of my body trying to heal itself. The 'real pain' did not actually hit until a few hours afterwards.

Going off my own experience in this instance (and another..which doesn't make quite as gruesome a story so I won't bore you with that one, another deep serious cut, anyway), I would say that having a clean cut to the throat would be painless. As you would be dead (assuming the arteries were cut) before it even started stinging.

My dad very nearly killed himself by not even realising he had cut his inside leg very deeply with a stanley blade after stupidly cutting towards himself instead of away from. My father in law has pretty recently cut himself on his arm (luckily outside arm rather than inner, which could have been deadly) and did not notice this until he felt blood drip onto his trousers, some 10 minutes after the injury. Such accounts are not rare at all.

Anecdotal data means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Just trying to explain a bit why I hold the views I do tbh...and why I have been the way I have been on this thread...

I may have behaved problematically and I do apologize. Its not often I get so invested in threads.