[Vicky.]

I am not thrilled with giving predatory males an easier time. Also no actual assault needs to take place for it to be a problem. A guy could just stand there intensely watching everyone get changed..and if the business has adopted 'self ID' (or if self ID becomes law) then theres nothing anyone can do about it, where they can currently complain and have him removed.

Yes some women look masculine, but lets not pretend that its really hard to tell what sex someone is.

The place where this apparent overblown fear of predatory males thing that falls apart though...possibly the most important of the problems here, refuges and prisons. Break it down for me how predatory males can access females in those places currently?

Completely aside from the predatory male aspect of this, I reckon that both sexes deserve some privacy from the opposite sex. I don't think many men would be happy changing clothes with a random woman watching, and vice versa.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

As less people are likely to challenge men with self-identification in place it is an increased risk and any increased risk is not acceptable. No-one knows for sure until there is a victim - which will be too late for her - but I suppose some would just shrug their shoulders and mumble something about collateral damage! It would also make all women more aware and look out for each other.

Nah. it would be her fault in some way. She was wearing a short dress, she was drunk...etc

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No u.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...police-figures

The figures show that women are fives times more likely than men to have experienced some kind of sexual assault.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...police-figures

The figures show that women are fives times more likely than men to have experienced some kind of sexual assault.

Who is denying this, and what does this have to do with what I or anyone else has had to say? How is "women get assaulted more!" evidence that only women can have an opinion on this topic and men need to be expelled from the discussion and / or mocked?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Who is denying this, and what does this have to do with what I or anyone else has had to say? How is "women get assaulted more!" evidence that only women can have an opinion on this topic and men need to be expelled from the discussion and / or mocked?

It's the exhibited lack of understanding I was attempting to address.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Nah. it would be her fault in some way. She was wearing a short dress, she was drunk...etc

This is what I mean by people creating over-the-top strawmen arguments about this. It doesn't do you any favours? Like several posts of really well constructed arguments but then peppered with passive aggressive, pointed hyperbole. Why?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by jaxie

It's the exhibited lack of understanding I was attempting to address.

What's given you the impression that I'm unaware that women are more at risk of sexual assault than men?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is what I mean by people creating over-the-top strawmen arguments about this. It doesn't do you any favours? Like several posts of really well constructed arguments but then peppered with passive aggressive, pointed hyperbole. Why?

Is it not true that many people will blame the woman no matter what?! Have you never seen women being effectively blamed for their rapes/assaults? How on earth is this an over the top strawman.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Nah. it would be her fault in some way. She was wearing a short dress, she was drunk...etc

Undoubtedly - as we hear it all the time whenever women get raped or assaulted. How dare they go out on their own at night etc!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Is it not true that many people will blame the woman no matter what?! Have you never seen women being effectively blamed for their rapes/assaults? How on earth is this an over the top strawman.

There are people who will blame the victim, always, that much is true. Far from the majority in my experience; more like a toxic few. However the way that it was stated is sarcastic and passive aggressive and over-riding the point. In my opinion.

I would also point out that in my experience, the types of comments you mention come from other women far more often than they do from men.

[Vicky.]

Basically this...'predatory men will get into womens areas anyway if they want to' argument...lets put this into another context

Burglars are going to burgle anyway. Why lock our doors?

The reason being, that it makes us feel safer, and it is a deterrent of sorts. It protects us against 'opportunistic burglars' too. It makes us feel we have done all we can to stop such people taking our stuff.

Women are taught by society that they need to protect themselves from men. Not all men of course, but a significant minority. I disagree with blaming women for the behaviour of men, but I agree that it makes sense to do what you can to be safe. We are told to basically, safeguard ourselves. Yet with this one topic, we are supposed to ignore all of our instincts, all of our fears. I don't get it. There is proof that when stores adapt unisex changing, voyeurism shoots up. So clearly there are a lot of people who would not offend usually (despite being able to walk into the opposite sex changing areas) but who do offend when its easier for them to do so for whatever reason. My issue with some of the arguments used on this topic, are that yes, theres technically nothing stopping predators from..being predators...but I am 100% against making it easier for them to be predators, and adopting self-ID will make things easier. We have sex segregation for a reason. And adopting self-ID is effectively ending sex segregation, but dressed up under 'trans rights'. Add the word trans, and some people seem to not be able to actually see the real problem as they automatically feel the need to agree with whatever will apparently give trans people more rights. All the while while not realising that trans is not just shorthand for transsexual...it includes the likes of crossdressers. And Transvestic fetishism is the most common paraphilia among sex offenders too. Worth thinking about really.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...police-figures

The figures show that women are fives times more likely than men to have experienced some kind of sexual assault.

I think it's difficult to gauge how much men are affected by sexual assault since report rates for such crimes tend to be insanely low, I'm not sure you can really get an accurate comparison with that in mind.

I do think women tend to be targeted more but I don't really see the point of drawing comparisons between the sexes when the data at hand will never be truly accurate.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There are people who will blame the victim, always, that much is true. Far from the majority in my experience; more like a toxic few. However the way that it was stated is sarcastic and passive aggressive and over-riding the point. In my opinion.

I would also point out that in my experience, the types of comments you mention come from other women far more often than they do from men.

OK thats not how it was meant, apologies. I did not mean that you personally would blame the victim. It was more a general comment tbh

[user104658]

Right; but why not always state it like that, at least in this section Vicky? I really don't want to go back here again but... You yourself are the mod who has made now four (I think?) attempts to "clean up SD's", make it about posts like the one you just made and NOT about posts like your previous ones or the stream of belittling / jibes / opinions disregarded I've had in this thread for having a penis.

I feel like it's worth stating again, as I have in other threads but may be forgotten:

- I don't really agree with untransitioned males entering female toilets and changing areas (I am heavily in favour of self-contained unisex facilities wherever possible)

- I totally agree about the labour officer thing in principle, again its the "angry language" that tips it over into something else

- I also totally agree that male to female trans people should never be eligible to enter female sporting events, as it presents a clear and unfair advantage.



The real debate is getting lost under "something else" and you quite clearly know fine well that that is the major problem with every topic on this section... But again, it just feels like your ideas on that go straight out the window as soon as the topic being discussed is a personal bugbear.

[Vicky.]

OK I am not really understanding what I have done wrong here. Does every post I make need to be an essay? Am I not allowed to say that women do not have penises? What exactly is your problem with my posts here, please be specific. I could of course go into huge essays on every post in SD..but thats holding me to a MUCH higher standard than anyone else on here. I am not allowed to be sarcastic? I am not allowed to make one line posts? I am not allowed to call men men, or to say the word dick? I genuinely am not understanding the issue and if I did have a clear outline of quite what it is you think I should and should not be posting, I could maybe get myself up to your standards. But I won't be censoring my opinions on things to suit others. In SD and on the main forum in general I self censor various insulting posts that I do feel like posting sometimes, I self censor when I go OTT into a rant..and have to delete it rather than post (happens a fair bit ), but I refuse to self censor just...opinions that some people happen to not like. Or posts they reckon are a bit too sharp..thats just my posting style and always has been.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

OK I am not really understanding what I have done wrong here. Does every post I make need to be an essay? Am I not allowed to say that women do not have penises? What exactly is your problem with my posts here, please be specific. I could of course go into huge essays on every post in SD..but thats holding me to a MUCH higher standard than anyone else on here. I am not allowed to be sarcastic? I am not allowed to make one line posts? I am not allowed to call men men, or to say the word dick? I genuinely am not understanding the issue and if I did have a clear outline of quite what it is you think I should and should not be posting, I could maybe get myself up to your standards.

They're YOUR standards, Vicky, read your own topics and posts on "cleaning up this section"?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They're YOUR standards, Vicky, read your own topics and posts on "cleaning up this section"?

I have read that, I wrote it. Still not understanding where I am going wrong in your opinion. I don't bait and snipe, I don't insult people (and if I do, I do apologize). I don't make multiple threads on the same topic. I rarely post one word/line replies...still not getting it.

I think your real problem is still that you reckon I permabanned thetruth off my own back. As its been alluded to a few times now and it seems to be then that you seemed having an issue with me. I did not permaban the truth as I had argued with him. His ban had been discussed for literally months in the admin section, and his posts in that topic (not the arguing with me, the posts in general) were just the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. he got a short ban, and over the course of that night and the following morning, it was decided that now was the time to finally bite the bullet and put a longer ban on him. I understand how it might come across as me just doing it, but no mod just does a permaban because they feel like it. Its a long (too long sometimes) drawn out process and needs near 100% agreement between all staff members.

If the problem is not this, then fair enough..but I feel it maybe needed explained anyway as you do seem to be pretty pissed off about that ban.

[Niamh.]

I assume I'm probably a person you're talking about aswell since you named me along with Vicky in a different thread. Are you saying that I'm transphobic and pretending to be bothered about the impact it's going to have on women or what? If so you can check back along to when the first time it was brought up about trans people using the bathroom of their choice and I know originally it didn't bother me at all, it was only after I did more reading up on it, the whole transsexual vs transgender stuff came about, self IDing etc that I changed my stance on it

[user104658]

Again it's not about the opinions or about anyone being transphobic, it's about the straight up fact that certain "ways of speaking" about this topic are seen as OK that would not be on other topics. I've seen this denied endlessly... By the people making the comments. It's not going away for me; there are huge double standards around this and similar issues and now it's all being intermingled with this recent (and ridiculous) idea that "men can't comment on women stuff".

Can British comment on US stuff?

Can white people comment on race issues?

Can Brillo comment on Muslims? Because its hammered home constantly that that is her right, despite not being a Muslim, and here's a strange one: the people shouting that the loudest are Jaxie and Cherie... And yet here we have in this thread, lo and behold, Brillo, Jaxie and Cherie arguing that I *cannot* comment on this issue as a man. Hmmmmm.

Men can comment on women stuff. That is the nature of debate. And it's being totally overlooked that there's a now constant attempt to shut down this variety of debate.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The real debate is getting lost under "something else" and you quite clearly know fine well that that is the major problem with every topic on this section... But again, it just feels like your ideas on that go straight out the window as soon as the topic being discussed is a personal bugbear.

As for this part, my ideas have actually gone right out the window in general. As when I attempted to actually do the stuff I said, there were just a lot of accusations of bias (from both sides) and people moaning. A lot of posts being deleted and ending up with 'why was that deleted' stuff and just generally a massive pain in the arse. I have now decided to just leave this section to burn tbh, as I cannot win no matter what it seems. Infact, I barely do any moderating at all these days because of this same reason. Its just not worth the stress. It will please you to know I have asked to step down a few times, and have just a few days ago again offered to step down to allow new blood. Not sure how that will go really but at the min I am basically a 'normal member' but with a green name.

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's a ham-fisted strawman attempt to use supposed misogyny to shut down an opposing argument.

Did you not use transphobia to shut down an opposing argument yesterday?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea".

Go figure.

[Vicky.]

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.

.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.

That doesn't mean that these isn't an element of Over-reaction, does it? Is it valid if a female says there's Over-reaction?

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again it's not about the opinions or about anyone being transphobic, it's about the straight up fact that certain "ways of speaking" about this topic are seen as OK that would not be on other topics. I've seen this denied endlessly... By the people making the comments. It's not going away for me; there are huge double standards around this and similar issues and now it's all being intermingled with this recent (and ridiculous) idea that "men can't comment on women stuff".

Can British comment on US stuff?

Can white people comment on race issues?

Can Brillo comment on Muslims? Because its hammered home constantly that that is her right, despite not being a Muslim, and here's a strange one: the people shouting that the loudest are Jaxie and Cherie... And yet here we have in this thread, lo and behold, Brillo, Jaxie and Cherie arguing that I *cannot* comment on this issue as a man. Hmmmmm.

Men can comment on women stuff. That is the nature of debate. And it's being totally overlooked that there's a now constant attempt to shut down this variety of debate.

excuse me I never said any such thing, what I did say was you were trying to tell me how to feel about this issue, just like now you are putting words in my mouth that I never said.

You branded practically everyone on this thread who didn't agree with you a closet transphobe for goodness sake